- NEWS
- Powder in sheriff's office is baking soda 41 minutes ago
- Snow possible in O.C.'s upper canyons 11 minutes ago
- Community college raffles 2010 Prius despite recall 1 hour & 39 minutes ago
- Yorba Linda home tops most-viewed list 1 hour & 2 minutes ago
- SPORTS
- SI exposes Winter Olympians 4 minutes ago
- Laker Rim Shots 2-8-10
- Sneak peek: SI swimsuit edition 2 hours & 13 minutes ago
- Angels' Shields won't be ready to start spring training 3 hours & 43 minutes ago
- BUSINESS
- Temp work pointing to a recovery? 3 hours & 5 minutes ago
- $16.5M apartments sale sets record 1 hour & 11 minutes ago
- Home slashes $1.3 million in 4 days
- Community college raffles 2010 Prius despite recall 1 hour & 38 minutes ago
- ENTERTAINMENT
- Ed Harris pulls us through 'Wrecks' 1 hour & 13 minutes ago
- 'Housewife' denies she has a new boyfriend 2 hours & 11 minutes ago
- 'Idol' champ Fantasia finds her voice on stage
- Celebrity birthdays: Who's another year older Feb. 9?
- LIFE
- TRAVEL
- OPINION
Poll: Repeal resident tuition for illegal immigrant students?
September 14th, 2009, 5:40 pm · 380 Comments · posted by Gary Robbins, science writer-editor
The University of California Board of Regents will meet in San Francisco Tuesday to discuss raising students fees as much as 30 percent. The proposal — along with the cancellation of scores of classes at public colleges and universities due to the state budget crisis — has led some readers to call for the repeal of AB 540, which allows “undocumented students” to pay resident fees to California colleges and universities, if certain conditions are met.
No one knows how many undocumented students receive such benefits because public colleges are not allowed ask for such information. So the cost to taxpayers isn’t known. The number, especially at the UC level, is likely to be small. Still, the issue has been raised often by readers, so I’m surveying public opinion in this non-scientific poll. I also urge you to use the Comments section. I stress that racially-insensitive remarks will not be permitted.
Explanation of AB 540 from Greedot.com
The AB540 law was passed in 2001 in order to allow undocumented students to pay resident fees in California’s public colleges and universities, as long as the student graduates from a California high school with at least three years of residency in the state.
AB540 Students must meet the following requirements:
- High school attendance in California for three or more years.
- Graduation from a California high school or attainment of the equivalent such as a GED.
- Register as an entering student at, or current enrollment at, an accredited institution of higher education in California: University of California, California State University and all community colleges.
- If the person is without a lawful immigration status, the student must complete an affidavit with the public college or university stating that the student has filed an application to legalize his or her immigration status, or will file an application as soon as he or she is eligible to do so.
- Student information provided to the college or university is confidential and protected by Federal law.
Reader Comments
Comments are encouraged, but you must follow our User Agreement.- Keep it civil and stay on topic.
- No profanity, vulgarity, racial slurs or personal attacks.
- People who harass others or joke about tragedies will be blocked.
380 Comments
-
ADVERTISEMENT
-
If your counting on the general population to look the other way and give illegal immigrants a pass it’s probably not gonna happen anymore.
An illegal immigrant student who meets the requirement of this law likely came here involuntarily as a child. Let us not penalize a child for the parents’ actions.
California schools should be available to all students who are residents.
Californians are of better quality than to scapegoat on innocent children.
If you want to create more room for citizens students, you can always eliminate admission of all foreign students. Proof of residency and birth citizenship would be required for admission. But that’s not the goal of those who attack students who were brought here illegally. It is an entirely race-based position.
Racism lives.
illegal aliens of all colors should be required to pay higher tuition. california is bankrupt.. that means there is no money… this is the easiest way to at least fight this deficit.
students from everywhere outside california all would have to pay higher tuition to attend public universities in california, and that should also apply for illegal aliens.
No, first they should be deported and sent back to their own country.
Then, they should follow the law and apply for a student visa to come back into the USA ON A STUDENT VISA. Then they should pay what the other international students pay for tuition and fees.
I don’t know why California hasn’t figured this out yet. Other states have already kicked out illegals from entering their colleges and universities.
Yes, that’s right, because this is going to solve the budget crisis, this big helping hand will be what we need to fight the evil deficit, we should email all our congressmen and let them know, that this one thing will save California, the money will be flowing!!!, because apparently there is a high number of illegal aliens just waiting to enter into the UC system, you know word has it, those boarder schools are top notch. We better watch out for jobs too, I couldn’t get that great janitorial job the other day. I feel so much better that our state has such admirable and wise people like you…
Deport them all. they are breaking the law plain and simple, dont give me your sob stories, boo freakin hoo..
Somehow I often hear the rhetoric that “let’s not penalize the innocent children.” Well, no one is penalized at all. Those kids may have been brought to the US involuntarily, but that does not mean they are entitled to everything US-born persons enjoy. That does not mean that not giving them everything US citizens enjoy is a penalization or punishment. Yes, children sometimes suffer because of their parents’ actions; and their parents are responsible. Are we going to grant citizenship to all those children because coming to the US is not their fault? Well, that’s not the fault of the US either!
nobody is saying that with AB 540 the students will be granted citizenship, OR “everything US citizens enjoy” because that’s hardly what the AB540 does.
UCI alumni - how many illegals do you think graduated with you? You folks are getting your panties in bunge for little reason. The majority of undocumented students are hispanic. The number of hispanics in higher education is growing but it is still far below their percentage of the population. The number of undocumented students is a smaller fraction of that. We are talking about a small group of students who have lived here most of their lives and beaten the odds to attend college. If you want to discriminate against them on that basis of what their parents did, well that’s just the kind of person you are. However, You are hopelessly naive if you believe the U.S. is not at fault for any of this. Who do you think hires the parents of these students? Go back to school UCI alum. Go back to school and learn something.
I am using U S citizenship as an analogy to illustrate the point that not giving those “innocent” children something is not a punishment.
regularguy7 - perhaps you would be getting your panties in bunge if you are the one who is losing your job or have to pay for the fee hike imposed on your kid. If you don’t mind, why don’t you pay for the difference between the in-state and out-state tuition of those “small group of students”? California and the nation are in such financial crisis because of irresponsible spending like this - something here for a small group, something there for another small group. I think you are the one who should be go back to school to learn about maturity and how to use reason in arguing.
UCI alum: I addressed your main points - there just wasn’t much there. What about U.S. culpability in this mess or do you think only one half of an illegal transaction breaks the law? These undocumented students did nothing wrong and don’t deserve to be discriminated against because their parents needed work and Americans want cheap labor. If one of them is more qualified than your kid, too bad. That, after all, is the American way. Also, you equate “not giving them something,” with making them pay out-of-state tuition. You must have studied at the Ken Lay school of economics.
regularguy7: Your points, if any, are lost when you said things like “You are hopelessly naive … Go back to school UCI alum. Go back to school and learn something.” Now, learn to be respectful.
U S culpability? Yes, the U S govt is culpable by not enforcing the immigration law more strictly. It is also culpable for having an immigration policy that is not fair and not beneficial to the national interests. But I am not going to that area here.
I disagree wth you what “the American way” is. As has been pointed out by many readers here, it is not the American way to subsidize the education of those who are illegal here.
Those children may be faultless. However, children do benefit or suffer due to their parents’ actions. Let’s say a parent moved out of California to Arizona to make a living and the child therefore was born and grew up in Arizona. Now this child is not able to enjoy the Calif in-state tuition, though he very much likes to attend UC. Well, too bad. The child is “innocent,” but the Calif taxpayers are innocent too. And whether he is more qualified than my kid is not the question. I am sure there are many many kids in the world who are much more qualified than many of the current students at UC. But that does not mean we need to grant them in-state tuition. There are many ways to attract those outstanding kids to UC, e.g. by way of scholarship. If you want to accomodate those undocumented kids because of their (academic) qualification, do it fairly - let them compete with other gifted students from US, China, India, Canada, … and maybe Mexico too, for scholarship, fellowship, etc, for example. And that’s the American way!
And perhaps you are the one who studied from Ken Lay. Please do learn to make your points logically and respectfully.
So, it’s okay to come from another country and pay in state tuition, but not from another state? Please, let’s be fair to everyone. Let the illegal alien children pay out of state tuition just like a kid from Nevada or Georgia or New York. This is not racist or bias, only fair to all.
It’s not about the heart strings, it’s about the purse strings and being fair to ALL out of state students.
I read that the federal Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996 prohibits public colleges from favoring undocumented students by offering them in-state tuition rates and not extending that offer to U.S. citizens.
Why is this not upheld in California?
there’s a difference between out of state and out of country. The other 49 states are still part of the United States…and how convenient that it says they’re “united” right in the name! As soon as an illegal alien applys to enroll without a student visa, they should be kicked out of the system. spots in our public colleges are disappearing, and we need them for the people that live here legally and abide by the rules.
well then maybe the us should eliminate teh out-of-state tuition in general.
The requirement for establishing residency for the purposes of paying in-state tuition is 366 days. Undocumented students attending college have more than lilkely gone through California’s K-12 system. These students should pay the same tuition as everyone else who has lived in California that long. Forcing them to pay more than their high school classmates is just wrong and I think most of you know that. Instead, we get these intellectually dishonest arguments using words like “fairness” when the logical and forseeable result is discrimination pure and simple. I don’t like whiners UCI alum. You are a whiner and while I certainly would hate to lose my job, I would never take it out on kids whose only “crime” is to go where their parents go, study hard and succeed. These students could teach most of us including UCI alum, a thing or two about what it means to be an American.
anonymous says,
“I read that the federal Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996 prohibits public colleges from favoring undocumented students by offering them in-state tuition rates and not extending that offer to U.S. citizens.”
I have heard this in the past as well. apparently California thinks they can bypass U.S. federal law by making their own “laws” forcing taxpayers to pay for non-citizens to get cheap tuition. I think CA should be forced to reimburse taxpayers they’ve been stealing money from to pay for it.
regularguy7: You should feel ashamed of yourself. I don’t think you are here to intellectually discuss an issue. You just like to take this opportunity to attack people who hold a different opinion from you. I respect people who hold a different opinion but I do not respect you. Shame on you.
bruinbill … you had a half-way decent argument going until you played the race thing. There are actually those of us who believe that illegals should be denied the benefits of our society, not because of their ethnicity or race but because they BROKE THE LAW to be here. Breaking the law has consequences including losing privileges that those who do not break the law get to enjoy. Why is this so hard to understand?
EXACTLY!!!!! What part of ILLEGAL do you not understand, bruinbill????!!!!
I don’t know where UCI alum and dwinnoc come from but in this country, we don’t punish children for the sins of their parents. What is needed here is a little bit of decency. These students have lived in our communities most of their lives. This is the only home they know. As a matter of law, these students are not responsible for being brought here. What part of “not responsible,” don’t you understrand? How is it fair, then, to punish them on that basis? Children do suffer as a result of their parents actions but we don’t have to make choices that punish these children further. This is what I find so reprehensible - the willingness to knowingly make the lives of these undocumented students even harder than it already is. Yet, UCI alum clings to the absurd notion that these students must pay out-of-state tuition when they have lived here most of their lives. He says making them pay more isn’t punishment. He says in-state tuition is a “benefit” when it is actually a fee. All of this to justify a discriminatory practice against a tiny minority group of college freshmen who have done him/her, nor anyone else, a wrong. You can boo-hoo all you want, UCI alum, you have no right tell anyone they should be ashamed of themselves.
I don’t know where regularguy7 comes from but in this country, people engage in civilized discussion and regularguy7, you should be ashamed of yourself not for the position you take, which I respect, but the manner you express it and talk to your opponents.
One is punished when what he/she is entitled to is taken away. These undocumented students never have the right to in-state tuition (or for that matter, to apply for financial aid, to vote,…) to begin with. They are not “punished” simply because these rights are not granted to them.
“Racism lives”? I think reverse racism lives too. And so does ignorance. I would argue that California taxpayers are innocent too. Why should Californians be “penalized” by having to pay for those children’s education?
are you aware that AB540 students don’t get a dime from the taxpayers? What AB540 does is simply grant resident tuition, not financial aid.
Not getting a dime? They get a big break in terms of paying only in-state fees. Are you aware that the state loses the revenue, i.e. the money they would have paid?
“Don’t get a dime?”
Did you know that Taxpayers SUBSIDIZE the education of all UC students. UC and Cal state schooling is half price for these students. So any illegal alien getting an education as a state student gets a 50% scholarship on TAXPAYERS backs!
Where do you get Racism?? This article is not referring to one specific ethnicity. The term illegal immigrant applies to all who are here illegally no matter what a persons ethnicity may be. It seems as though your inference alone is racist. Anyways, it has nothing to do with racism and everything to do with affordability. California is now broke and the State is in a terrible mess because of promises just like AB 540 and 1000’s of others. Trying to please everyone is a slippery slope and once you’ve gone too far you end up not being able to pleae anyone.
It is actually not racism. You are mistakenly assuming that the target is people of a particular race. The target is people who are not Legal American Citizens no matter what color their skin or what their facial features.
This is about MONEY. Taxpayer’s money to be specific. Americans who are paying taxes are getting pretty tired paying for non-documented white, black, purple, green and blue skinned (or any other race) peoples who entered the USA illegally.
There are too many hand-outs like medi-cal and tuition that is going to create huge taxes for us. The illegal aliens do not have to pay taxes, medical care, and now school. We cannot even help legal citizens with those same needs. It is entirely wrong for California or any other state.
My grandfather was brought to the US from Mexico when, he was nine months old. He had to learn and only speak English in school and it benefited him. He did well in school and went into the US Army to fight for his new country America. After, the war he went straight to work and back to school. He became a Foreman for the L.A. Water district, then he retired and went back to work as a banker at the age of 73 years old. He is now a WWII veteran with a purple heart, and silver medal living in comfort because he fought his way through life in California. I admire him for not expecting anything free or partially free just for living here.
We need teach the innocence children to work hard for a living and they will gain respect for our country in return. I am half white and half Hispanic. I understand both sides. But agree with the majority AB540 must be eliminated.
typical excuse for those that have illegals in their family or benefit from the hiring of illegals. Guess what rocket scientist, people don’t care if you label them a racist anymore for speaking out against illegal aliens.
WE DO NOT CARE. Call us whatever you want, fact is we will still speak out minds and people now realize that pulling the race card is out dated. No one cares.
This is not a ‘penalty.’ This is reality. Sometimes we have to do what we have to do. Sometimes there are even consequences for our actions, such as how our illegal activity affects our children.
Editor’s note: MelissaC’s second message deleted for being off-topic.
International students who follow the rules have to pay the full cost of tuition. Why should students who break the rules be rewarded?
A college student is not a child any more and if they have not taken the steps to gain citizenship to protect themself it’s a real problem. Perhaps you would be willing to foot the bill towards their education out of your own pocket?
You of all people, hard working mom, should no what hard work is and what it takes to raise children. An 18-year old college freshman may not be a child anymore but we don’t have to make choices that make the lives of these students even harder. You want them to sweat up the money for out-of-sate tuition, deal with the immigration bureaucracy and keep up with their school work. Would your teenage children have the mettle to handle all that? Would you have been able to do all that at 18? These students should not be held responsible for what their parents did. These kids have worked hard too, mom. They have beaten the odds and qualified for college. Let them continue on thier journey by requiring them to pay what their high school classmates pay for college, no more and no less.
So when do we enfoce the laws.. next week.. next year… next generation?
Stop with the F*#$ing racism card!!
I’m “hispanic” and I can’t stand the illegals… hispanic and non-hispanic alike!
It’s a matter of ABIDING by the laws that this REPUBLIC has….. seriously get in line fill out the paperwork and go through the process…
what does “hispanic” (in quotes) mean?
Why the need to obfuscate the issue? International students pay out of state tuition and fees. They lay no claim to no benefit for any reasons. An illegal alien student who came here ilegally should not benefit from any entitlements like in state tuition. In these dire times of economic hardship for Cali students and their parents, the illegal alien student has no right to steal from the American public. Repeal of AB 540 is an absolute no brainer if higher education is to continue exist in Cali.
If a resident of another state comes to California to go to school, they have to pay non-resident tuition. Why would someone who is in the U.S. legally have to pay more than someone who is here illegally. Makes no sense.
california schools should be available to all students who are residents?????? they are not residents they are illegal aliens not residents, i say as they registers and get there special little program, ice is there to pick them up
Foreign students pay the full tuition to the schools that they go to here in the US. Schools actually make money from foreign students.
When I was in school, my foreign classmates were paying about $250/unit while I was paying about $50/unit.
JoeMade: You’re referring to legal international students. We’re discussing undocumented aliens.
well, at least I’m not counting on you for grammar or spelling. Did some illegal kid take your place in school that day?
Grammar lesson of the day: Sentences begin with a capital letter. When typing, push and hold the shift key. Then press the letter that needs to be capitalized. Release keys and continue typing.
Have a nice day!
Grammar and punctuation lesson for today: “…hold the shift key. Then press the…” should read, “…hold the shift key, then press the…” Other errors you made include the fragmentation of your last sentence, along with the comma you forgot to type following the word “keys” and preceding the word “and.” Now do you see what happens when you post a smart-ass comment? Good day to you, sir!
“Did some illegal kid take your place in school that day?”
Are you saying that just because a person is illegal it means they are unintelligent? I’m an illegal student. I came here when I was very young. I’m also number one in my class. My GPA is 4.0. My grades are so much higher than the rest that person who is number two doesn’t have a chance to even come close to taking the spot from me. Can you honestly tell me student like don’t deserve a chance? Most of us are just asking for that.
is not a free pass.
This students have worked as hard as u or even harder.
They have put themeselves in the line to achieve their dream..
Before u come and comment here know the topic and read the facts.
i ain’t disrespecting u but, just know the facts.
this scholars have been here for there whole life, brought my their parents in hope for a better life. They have earned there high school diploma, there B.A.’s, Master’s, and Doctornes.
They want an opportunity not a free pass.
So, by your logic you are saying that an American kid who grew up in another country deserves an opportunity in that country? Do you know of any places where this is true? Actually, it seems to me that a lot of countries have stricter requirements than we do (such as not being able to own property if you are not a citizen). These kids can have all the opportunity they can handle…in the country where they hold citizenship.
So let me get this right……after sponging off of California taxpayers by getting a free education in a California HS for “three or more years” as stated in the requirements, the “undocumented student” is rewarded by paying lower in-state tuition? Meanwhile, the legal student (possibly, also an immigrant) from Arizona, Nevada, or any other state gets hit with high out of state tuition? Seems like a bass-ackwards way of doing business. Maybe the out-of-state students could lose their documentation to get cheaper tuition too?
The bottom line is that in-state tuition is cheaper because presumably a student in-state (or his or her family) has been paying California tax which goes to support the UC, CSU, etc. systems. If this law remains in force, why not add a requirement to show proof that the family has paid federal & state taxes (in the form of tax returns filed with the IRS & FTB)? If we can’t do that, how about we have ICE agents work details in the UC paperwork processing offices to get intel?
In the early voting, readers are largely saying no. I’m interested in your reasons. Thanks, Gary
If non-resident students (whether out of state or country) have to pay the higher fees, why would undocumented students get a better deal. Do like the rest of us, become citizenized legally, work your tail off while going to school part time and earn it!!
I totally agree. If we don’t give special treatment to someone from Arizona, why give it to an undocumented person. This is another example of carrying the financial burden (through higher fees) because a minority is getitng a hand out.
Hey Ron, illegals are also white - Czech, Russian, Irish Are they white minorities?
For the most part those who come here illegally come here as unskilled labor. There is no realistic legal pathway for unskilled labor from latin america. THE LINE does not exist!!
why does every one keep saying that illigal immigrant should just become citizens like every one else. stop creating this sense that becoming a legal alien is a walk in the park. stop saying that they should just come here legally. you don’t think that if there was an avenue they would do it.
get a fact check there is no avenue. if there was they would be here legally. come on jose with all due respect, you don’t know that?
A woman I know attained a green card, came to the United States legally, and worked hard to attain her citizenship, and it was one of the happiest moments of her life. You, sir, are just as ignorant and closed-minded as those you are trying to attack.
Penalize the child? The child is here illegally. He or she should be sent back to whatever country their parents came from. That’s not penalizing the child. That’s returning the child to his/her homeland. If a parent were to steal a large sum of money and buy a house for their family to live in, does that mean the child should keep the house because he/she shouldn’t be penalized? Think about it. It was the parents’ decision to break the law so it shouldn’t mean that tax payers should foot the bill for the parents’ decision. We can’t afford it and we shouldn’t be expected to do so.
Come Here “legally”? White people didn’t come here that way. Ever heard of the Red Sand Reservsation? Do you know where the “red” came from? People were murdered aquiring this land and not the white ones either. Did you ever see the bottle of Sauza tequila that showed old Mexico and its borders? It was banned from the US. Ever notice how much American Indians look like Mexicans? Hmmm. Let the past be the past? Give EVEYBODY a fair, not waiting forever in line to get here a chance. I’m of German descent, and I think Latino’s got SCREWED.Our state economy relies on everybodies contribution, including our Latino brothers and sisters.
There’s a country just south of ours that is suppose to be a place for Mexicans to flourish, make a difference and wave the Mexican flag. That country is a place of supposed pride for many Mexicans that won’t hesitate for a split second to tell you where their allegiance lies. The thing is, many of them live here illegally and deserted their supposed place of immense pride. If I was from a certain country, and I held it near and dear to my heart, I would do everything possible to stay there. Sure, there aren’t as many jobs on any given day, but there’s a ton of corruption and the citizens of Mexico need to march in Mexico City to demand their country be returned from all the corrupt politicians, not march in the United States demanding rights they legally do not posses.
Gary, my 20 year old daughter, born here in California, wants to complete her education in New York. She will have to pay out of state tuition unless she “cheats” by saying she has lived there long enough to be considered a resident or just lies. On the other hand, any 20 year old illegal can attend any college in California at “resident” fees. That is the problem plain and simple. Why should someone who has no right to be anywhere in the USA get his kind of financial break while my daughter (anyone’s daughter) has to pay more? Who do you suppose pays for this “break” through higher taxes? Me! So I actually get to pay twice. Once for out of state tuition for my daughter, and again for every illegal who gets a tuition break here in California.
My daughter will be doing the same in the Northeast.
On the other hand, any 20 year old illegal can attend any college in California at “resident” fees.
No offense Mr. Smith just wanted to point out that not just ANY 20 year old illegal can attend…the requirements are listed above..needs highschool for 3 years
Does this have something to do with children of parents who are illegal?
I don’t know this is weird why was the law put in in the first place..
Why are they in highschool to begin with if they are here illegally…
Is it an older law that had to do with amnesty…need more information
We’re talking 15-what 18 year olds?
Need more info Gary
your taxes my taxes blah blah blah blah. You know what? Illegal immigrants or not you’re still going to pay them, so get used to it. YOU have no control where your taxes go anyway. Furthermore, most of these illegal immigrants who work pay taxes, but cannot get tax refunds. So the government keeps their taxes. Also, don’t illegal immigrants drive cars? Which means they pay gas taxes for the roads you drive on as well. Keep in mind that they also pay sales taxes - everybody does even if you’re a tourist you still pay sales taxes. I’d say that they earn themselves a right to an affordable education, it’s the American Dream. Study, graduate from college and build a career. It’s the land of opportunity, not the land of let’s pick and choose which nationalities can and cannot study. Lastly, it’s not like they’re handing out free education. Every illegal immigrant who asks to have out of state fees waived obviously has to prove that they have been living within California for 3 years or more prior to entering college. At least they don’t “cheat” like your daughter. What type of values are you trying to teach your children, Mr. Smith? Stick that in your pipe and smoke it, grandpa.
OOOOHHHHH YEAH!!!!!! WELL SAID VINCENT!!!!!! Best comment on this WHOLE page!!!!
They don’t earn their right to live here, Vincent. They come here illegally and get jobs - mostly under the table. There is no witholding therefore they don’t pay income tax. They go to the emergency room when they want health care so they don’t need health insurance. We end up paying taxes to support them and they go to our schools without paying a dime since most of them aren’t paying property tax. They drive without licenses or insurance and when they have an accident we have to have uninsured mortorist insurance to cover them and us. They should be removed. I don’t mean by rounding them up because there are too many. I mean we should require every job applicant to provide a SSN and every employer to verify that this SSN belongs to this applicant. There is an 800 number to do this but the employers aren’t required to use it. Just make them use it! You don’t have a right to come here just because you want to. The USA has the right and the responsibility to limit the number of immigrants and to verify who they are. Vincent you’re a bleeding heart liberal and we have way too many of those in this country as well.
Illegals pay taxes… LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
I don’t think I’ve laughed so hard in my entire life!! Having worked with “illegals” and lived in neighborhoods with “illegals” I can tell you for certain that the MAJORITY of them do not pay their fair share! They do everything that they can to circumvent paying taxes, paying straight CASH on deals or buying smuggled goods from Mexico. You are sadly dillusional if you think they pay the same as you and I, legal citizens of the US.
How in the world can an illegal citizen obtain a driver’s license when you need to be a citizen in the first place? How can they get insurance to cover their cars and passengers? They do not pay taxes because they do not have SS#’s to report under to the IRS, so they are NOT contributing to the State Treasury yet they are demanding equal rights. Uhm, do people not use logic anymore??
We citizens are paying taxes to float these people (white, black, asian, mexican, etc.) through high school, community college and then 4 year universities. This is NOT fair to those of us who have the right, as citizens, to have the “discounted” education fee. Illegals should have to pay the same rate that international students pay because technically, they ARE international students just here without government permission.
Just because a child goes through High School with a 3.0 or better GPA, manages to get in to college then graduate with honors doesn’t make it right. Period. Who cares if they have the best work ethic over a citizen? The point is that they are ILLEGAL.
i Agree with you 100%
We are talking about education, which everyone should be entitled to regardless of their status. First thing that should be changed is the immigration law. My mother, a US citizen, petitioned for my married sister 9 years ago and they still have not received their green card. At the time when they applied, the turn time for I130 category 3 was 2.5 -3 years, also there was a law that indicated for my sisters family can stay in the states until they get their green card but they would have to pay a penalty. My niece at the time, 14 years old, did not speak any English. We registered her in Glendale High School and she graduated with 3.98 GPA. Then she attended Glendale College and graduated with 4.0. then she went to UCLA and got her BS, this was just this year. Well my niece’s dream is to go to med school and become a doctor, but guess what she cannot because she is not legal. She can’t apply for any loans because she does not have SS#. She also lost all of her scholarships because she did not have SS#.
If today her parents, my sister and her husband, get their green cards, my niece will still not get hers because she is over 21. Now is this fair?
To avoid having millions of illegal people we must first change our immigration law. And education should always be awarded regardless of person’s color, mobility, legal status or financial situation.
Thank you
avgjoe: before you keep laughing, please answer this: how do you expect them to pay their “fair share”? i guarantee (as someone who has had the same if not more interaction with undocumented people as you in this state) that they are not avoiding taxes- often people pay cash for the same reasons other people in poverty do, regardless of legal status, and it has little to do with “avoiding” taxes. Study after study consistently shows that undocumented persons put more into the system than they take out of it.
I totally agree with you. That was a really straight forward post!
I think legal residency should always be established BEFORE receiving any public benefits, including public education.
It makes no sense to reward illegal immigrants simply because they managed to stay under the radar for a specific period of time, yet AB540 provides incentive to do just that.
They should become legal residents first, then reap the benefits that come with that - not the other way around.
If I were to illegally enter Mexico and become an undocumented American citizen living in Mexico, first of all what would be the reaction of the Mexican gov’t if they were to find out, secondly would I be eligible for any social (and medical) programs they have in place for their citizens and thirdly, could I attend their universities at in country resident rates, which I would assume are lower than rates for international students?
I teach in a school with a a majority of illegal students. The vast majority have no interest in becoming American. They are more like locust - taking what they can get and taking it back to Mexico (free lunch, free breakfast, free education, free afterschool program, free programs for medical, etc…) Amazing how they are viewed as American Dreaming immigrants, but the rate of pregnancy is ridiculous! 9 girls so far this year of 437 girls!
The lists of resources is phenomenal! If the general public knew the amount of freebies available to illegals you would all change your status to “undocumented”.
I am tired of the bellyaching from both sides. If the government would just enforce the current laws, and seal the borders, the school system would not seem as horrible as it currently appears. My American students are excelling!
Hard times call for hard measures, and I for one would rather keep my hard-earned pay for my own 3 kids, mortgage, medical expenses, and retirement.
Wow and your a teacher, hard to belive… ive had the life of luxury and seen so called illegal immigrants roughing it out to get by…you people make me laugh because you are so quick to help africans dying of aids and yet are so quick to strip children of an education just because they are here illegally…you people need to seriously sit down and thnk about the priorities in life this country is going down the drain fast and what do you do pick out a scapegoat. Ha well everyone has a turn in history, the blacks, the jews, latinos, gays, lol, wow everyone but so called americans have had a turn people grow up its funny really all these uber proud people and what do you have to prove for it, im an america citizen and i cant even afford health insurance yup i sure do have some great benefits as a citizen.
Gary,
I voted yes on the poll, and here is why. The illegal immigrants who go to cal states, UC’s, and community colleges live here. When you consider the requirements of having to be in the state for several years already, the chance of them leaving the state is low. While the difference between in state and out of state tuition is high, that amount is generally made up by the taxes they pay to california to work here in teh near future.
As a recently graduated college student with little cash on hand, moving far away from california is not an option as moving requires extra money for extra expenses. When a students lands employment somewhere, they pay taxes on it regardless of status (especially for technical fields). Lets say they stay in california in ten years. When said student earns enough to get a house somewhere in california, they pay proterty taxes which is more than adequate to cover the expenses of the fees. The key issue here is property taxes. If the student doesn’t get tuition assistance (ie. residence status) they don’t get a degree, they dont get a house, they dont break the bottom tax bracket (they pay no taxes), they don’t pay property taxes because they rent.
There will be no mass exodus of people from California. People tend to live relatively close to where they were raised. Why prevent them from paying more taxes to the government over time than the education itself? Denying them is a foolish short term tax break, not a long term strategy.
BTW, there is a requirement saying that they are currently seeking resident status. That can take upwards of 5 years to accomplish. I have friends who have been waiting for their green cards for years, let alone citizenship (and god knows how many of these undocumented immigrants would be willing to fight and die for this country so long as they were granted citizenship so it could become their country). And its no free ride either. College is hard most dont make it 4 years.
If you truly want to enforce this, make them sign a document saying they will stay in california for x amount of years.
Paden
You are missing the point, California is already over crowded. It doesn’t matter if they get a degree and buy a house because in reality they are taking away from an American who is here legally. California used to have the best educational system in the US. Now they are one of the lowest. The reason why is that illegals don’t pay enough taxes. They don’t pull there own weight. And they are over burdening all social services.
Think about it. If America let every in who wanted to come, America would be like the place where the immigrant comes from.
what ? the California educational system is bad because people dont pay taxes? can you please elaborate more on that? i’d really love to know how that works.
Public education in CA is a very complex issue and cannot be attributed solely on illegal immigration. Mind you, illegal immigration has taken a marked toll on our system with taxpayers shelling out untold hundreds of millions each year. But we as taxpayers have also done ourselves in by engaging in budget balloting. Proposition 13 essentially killed the local control over public school financing and it also brings in a decisively smaller amount of funds to our public schools. In the 60’s and early to mid 70’s we spent 5.5 cents of each dollar on public schools, drove Chevy’s and lived modestly. Now, we spend only 3 cents out of each dollar on public schools,drive BMW’s and live more lavishly. We screwed out own kids out of a decent education (I am mostly talking about the working class to poor communities) at the public school level. You add in the fact that illegal immigration has multiplied exponentially the number of kids in our public school system, addition to the ratio of teacher to student and causing more of our tax dollars to be spent on building schools and hiring administrators, rather than putting that money directly to the learning process.
I’m impress, you did your homework, great job! smart man!
It is still not fair. Many foreigners wait in line to immigrate to the US legally. While they are waiting, in compliant with our law, their kids were born. Now without the “luxury” of being involuntarily brought here by their parents, these kids are not able to meet the residency requirements in order to enjoy the in-state tuition. On the other hand, those “innocent” children who were brought here by their illegal parents can. Is that fair?
Make them sign a document saying they will stay in California for x amount of years? There are plenty of kids in China, India, Africa, … who are very much willing to sign such doc if they can pay the in-state fees. And they also very much to live in Calif for x amount of years. Why shouldn’t we give those a fair chance?
The thing is, if they go through the trouble of getting a green card then they’re not your typical illegal immigrant who avoid government authority and steal Social Security numbers. Those who attempt the process to become a naturalized citizen with documents to PROVE they started xx years/months ago shouldn’t be penalized. I have no problem with them going the correct way.
However, those who come here illegally, do not pay taxes which contribute to the state system (roads, schools, colleges, etc.) do not deserve any break what so ever. Why? They cheated the system. As a kid you’re always told “Cheaters never prosper” yet they do, which is outrageous as someone who does pay their taxes every year since working and I see no sort of financial help from the state or feds when enrolling for college.
Gary:
One of my reasons would be that California is in no position to be offering this “deal” to non-residents, irrespective of where they come from. Your informal poll supports this by a wide majority.
For me, bringing up the race card over a purely financial situation is silly, and tired. We have been in what many economists consider the worst financial crisis since the great depression. The State is basically bankrupt. Just like a family has to do to survive, the state must review where money is allocated, and make changes as needed. I would start by taking a good look at payroll, with a sliding scale salary reduction that lasts until the state is financially sound.
Let the threats of “not adjusting salaries to remain competitive” flush-out those who think they can do better elsewhere.
It is just a matter of priority. I definitely would like to save the world if we have enough money. But right now while people are getting laid off, those kids who are legally here are facing hugh fee hike, …, helping those illegal kids does not sound like very important.
Good points. Let’s save ourselves first, then the world.
If they are illegally here how can they get jobs when they graduate?
If they cannot work legally then they have just used up expensive and scarce resources. Those resources should have gone to legal residents who can work here and are in a position to use their new found knowledge to benefit all of us.
They can then actually use and even repay society for their subsidized educations.
We just cannot afford to educate everyone from everywhere, anymore.
I think that any student paying resident fees for a College or University education in the State of California must first prove legal residency - either with a birth certificate or a green card.
I DON’T THINK WE SHOUULD ALLOW ANY UNDOCUMENTED PEOPLE IN OUR COUNTRY LET ALONE OUR UNIVERSITIES OR PUBLIC COLLEGES.
I don’t understand why people get so upset about immigrants trying to better themselves. Is it because they’re jealous that “they” never made an effort to this themselves? Some immigrant children have lived in this country practically there entire life…”send them back to there country!”, they say…what country?….If they’ve been here their entire life? If immigrants and their families are willing to sacrifice time and effort to better themselves and they can afford the outrages tuitions that those of us who have cared or wanted to are paying…then, I say,…LET THEM GO TO SCHOOL AND PAY AS RESIDENTS OF THIS STATE!
Angel: They are not immigrants — they are ILLEGAL. We have laws in this country. Let’s try enforcing them for a change. ILLEGALS should not be allowed to stay in this country and go to our schools, hospitals, etc. It isn’t even fair to LEGAL immigrants coming here through the correct process. I have a sister-in-law also who went through the process and became a citizen. She was from Cuba.
ILLEGALS are votes to corrupt politicians. I hope this clears that up for you Angel. You probably mean well, but illegal immigration is very destructive.
RD, illegals can’t vote you ….
Tell B1 Bob Dornan that illegal immigrants cannot vote. Stuff happens on the way to the voting booth.
Illegal immigrants you fool. Stop dropping the illegal moniker when you make your argument. You are doing a tremendous disservice to those who have done everything legally and entered this country as they were supposed to. Yep. The kids are illegal. Perhaps not their fault but they are old enough and intelligent enough to enter college so they must be intelligent enough to know that their parents have ensured that they are living illegally and they should assume responsibility for their own actions.
As an immigrant myself 27 years ago to the US, I went through secondary, post-secondary, and graduate school in this great nation. I struggled to learn English during high school whose student body is 99.9% English speaker. Eventually, I went on to receive degrees from two prestigious universities. I too have no problem with immigrants or their children learning and striving to better themselves in our society. However, the question here is whether illegal immigrants afford the same right to higher education as legal immigrants (residence or naturalized citizens). The answer is NO regardless their race, ethnicity, and nationality. Illegal immigrants, by their status, afford neither rights nor priviledges. A faith based organization can help to provide education for illegal immigrants and their children as a humanity gesture. However, our government cannot do so as it risks erasing the separation of Church and States. I will help a faith based organization to provide humanity support for illegal immigrations but in no way I want to see my government supports these individuals through my tax dollars. My tax is for the legal residence and citizens of this nation.
MDW, if what you say is true, congratulations, you have proven what this country is all about.
Thank You!
you have yet to pay for an illegal immigrant student’s college tuition.
Many wrongs (by thefederal, state, local and of course, the illegal) don’t make it right….
They should have to pay like everyone else. No breaks, I live here and I don’t get any break why should the “poor illegal” (white,brown, yellow and black). If they were born here they have documents….even know their parents where not. So they do have documents. Pay attention man. You don’t even know what you are talking about.
Angel, you’re missing the point. This discussion is not whether or not illegal alien children should be able to receive an education. The discussion, rather, is whether or not legal, tax-paying citizens should subsidize their educations. If legal American kids from other states aren’t eligible for the in-state tuition rates, then why should kids who are here illegally from other countries?
And no, this isn’t a jealousy thing. I have my degrees (BA and MBA), and I paid for them both. In fact, when I got my MBA, I had a full time job, a family, a home to maintain, and a volunteer commitment. I understand what it is to have to work to better yourself. But I never too any government money (because I didn’t go to a state school). So don’t try to make this about us. This is about illegal aliens getting subsidized education courtesy of my paycheck.
And check your logic. First, there is no tuition at state schools. There are fees. Second, these fees at state schools are incredibly low compared to private schools. $4,000 per year for a state school, versus $10,000+ for a private school. So what ‘outrageous tuitions’ are you talking about? Any school included in this matter is a state school that deals only in fees, not tuitions.
Bottom line, they are not citizens, and should not be entitled to any citizen benefit. There is a moral and ethical obligation to preserve the liberty of citizens, and our government is letting us down by allowing non-citizens to rape our bank accounts for their own selfish wants.
Look — I don’t know how anyone can be FOR letting ILLEGALS use our schools at ANY level, let alone get special pricing at resident fees. Plainly, they ARE NOT LEGAL here in this country.
My grandparents came here LEGALLY through Ellis Island. They worked hard and sent their kids to college.
This is upside down. Is there no right and wrong anymore???!!!
That’s the thing, RD. The liberals want to make everything so out of whack and out of control that you don’t know what right or wrong is anymore. Or in this case, legal or illegal. They want to make our country a free-for-all for everybody who’s not a citizen at the expense of the taxpayer.
I don’t think so.
“We’re all immigrants!” is what the bleeding hearts proclaim, but that’s a huge slap in the face to every immigrant who has ever come here the right way. There are millions of people around the world who would love a chance to come here and they wait to do it the right way. Every legal immigrant I’ve ever known is so grateful to be a part of this country and they contribute as members of our society. Illegals on the other hand are only out for themselves and come here for the freebies we give out like candy falling from a pinata.
We don’t owe illegals anything. The more we continue to incentivize illegal immigration, the bigger the problem (and the more taxes you get to pay). My ancestors came here legally from Mexico. My family’s been here for four generations, each of which has worked hard to achieve the American dream and we are sick and tired of illegal aliens making *us* look bad.
WOW LMFAO at that pinata joke!
but seriously though AB540 doesnt say that you owe anything to anybody, it just says that AB540 students can pay the same fees as a resident. You are NOT paying for their fees because AB540 students CAN’T get any financial aid from the state or fed resources. they still gotta pay all that money just like any CA resident student that according to the state has too much financial resource to get any help from the state.
Californias ARE paying their fees because the state schools are highly subsidized by tax dollars…The fees students pay do not cover the entire cost of their education. Perhaps you didn’t see that CSUF just cancelled a bunch of classes due to lack of funds. Many classes and degree programs are hard to get into because of demand. Why should an illegal be able to take up seats that a citizen could use?
Although, with a 50% high school drop-out rate,I don’t think the number of illegals getting into colleges is that great.
mg: you utterly fail at looking at the situation realistically. your family came at a time where a border virtually did not exist. to come legally was incredibly easy. believe me, people are not coming to this country illegally for fun, if there was a way to do it legally that was at all reasonable, i guarantee you the number of undocumented persons in this country would drop signficantly. so please get off your high horse of “my family came here legally” because i can almost guarantee that, had they been in enough need or in enough desparation, they would have entered this country illegally had they been in the same situation today. don’t you dare compare that situation to the situation of people today, it doesn’t fly.
Just as in all other segments of our society, I suspect there are many more illegal immigrants in our state universities than we know. So it’s hard to know just how much their presence is costing, but it won’t be less than the guestimates, that’s for sure. Are these students eligible for college scholarships? If they are, why should US citizens have to compete with non-citizens for limited scholarship funds? Personally I’m tired of funding the illegals. If I decided I needed to go live in Peru, would that government provide top-quality medical care, provide my children special education, and present everything they do in my language? Yeah, right. The elementary school system in La Habra is completely swamped trying to deal with the situation, and many of the families have no problem yanking their kids out of school for a six-week vacation around Christmas. But when they pop back into town, they expect their jobs to be held open for them, and their kid’s spot in school waiting as well. We’ve spoon-fed these people enough. If they come in legally, that’s different. California has suffered from this invasion enough, and somebody somewhere has to have the peaches to put an end to it.
They’re not costing you a dime because they aren’t getting financial aid, they pay the most out of anyone at the universities/colleges.
Note from Editor: David’s remark deleted for racial stereotyping.
what did he say (just curious)
Illegal is ilegal period. There are way too many California Citizens who are being left out of the priveledge of a college education due to classes being full. California is in a sad state of affairs financially w/o giving benefits to illegal immigrants. The free giveaways have got to stop…….NOW.
The Federal Govt won’t address this out of control dilemma, so we as a state must take action. The California citizen will back up the Governor in this quest. Filling a seat so education money comes in will still be accomplished.
You spelled “ilegal” and “priveledge” wrong…can we give you a free education? Illegal aliens are required to pay for tuition, they are not given state or federal financial aid, I don’t see how that’s a giveaway…I’m just trying to have a constructive conversation here.
If they paid out of state tuition, how much more would that be? Paying less means someone is making up the difference given the high costs to run our universities. Who do you suppose is paying that difference? Me and other taxpayers! That is why we are so mad. I should spell check this so you don’t focus on the trivial, but what the heck.
They pay taxes as well and I wish we had reliable numbers or stats that could show us how much illegal aliens pay in various taxes, because then we could really have a conversation about the numbers, but no one really knows, so therefore blanket statements about illegal aliens and taxes cannot truly me made, without inviting doubt and skepticism….but thanks for taking the time Mr. Smith.
numerous studies, Liz, do in fact show that illegal aliens do not pay anywhere NEAR into the system what they take out. Not even *close*.
Mr Smith,
There is one thing you aren’t considering. The difference between pay of a college graduate and a high school graduate. That difference in pay ensures that the college graduate actually pays taxes (unlike the lowest tax brackets). Over time, funding there education allows for the win-win scenario in which the student pays back what they owe (with substantial interest in taxes) and furthers the education goals of the state as a whole regardless of legal status.
In addition to this, those who utilize this right must PROVE that they are attempting to gain legal status. The government works quite slow, and green card status can take upwards of 5 years (according to now nationalized friends who immigrated here 8 years ago). And dont think they would choose to not be a legal immigrant than an illegal one. Legal channels do take quite a long time.
If you would like me to support my points with tax bracket information, and pay break downs i will gladly do it. My point is simply, with a degree any student earns more in his or her lifetime. The more the earn, the more you tax. I’m sure you have payed more than $30,000 in taxes in your lifetime, why should that be any different for an immigrant of any status. They do need a tax ID number to get any gainful employment with a degree of some kind.
Paden
I don’t understand how you can possibly make the argument that they will repay the reduced college fees with additional taxes. It is ILLEGAL to hire an illegal alien. Any company that is going to hire a college educated employee must verify their legal status. So, where do they go? Either back to their own country or to companies that do not abide by the law. Please explain how this possibly benefits either California or the US.
give it a break Liz. I seriously doubt that most posters proofread their posts or write them in MS Word or whatever and spellcheck them before submission, and there’s no ability to edit your comment once it’s submitted and posted. Ron spelled illegal correctly the first time. Which words did i mispell?
No you aren’t, Liz. You’re using sarcasm and nit-picking to try to make a point. And it’s a bad point. Understand that those of us who are legal citizens don’t appreciate our taxes continually increasing so we can support unnecessary programs like this. Congratulations on knowing how to spell. Now, please work on your critical thinking and logic skills.
How is it not a giveaway if they are receiving a state subsidized education, courtesy of California’s tax payers?
LIZ: They pay nowhere near in taxes what they take in..About the only taxes they pay are payroll taxes and sales tax. Many work for cash, and of those that do, they don’t make enough to have to pay taxes (especially since alot have 2,3,4 kids or more). They can fill out there W-4s as “EXEMPT”, and income tax will not be withheld. How many also receive the Earned Income Tax Credit, which is not only $0 in taxes, but they get a check back.
godux, please cite your sources, because i have read only the opposite.
I think its pretty simple that no matter what race or background you are people are sick of government not enforcing our immigration laws… Its one thing if people immigrate the lawful and legal way I think everyone would welcome the idea of helping them, but rewarding those who come illegally is just another slap in the face of citizens who just want our laws enforced and people to play by the same rules as anyone else.
I say yes.Invest in the future.We all benefit from an educated populace.They are going to be here anyway,why not educate them.
You give up too easily and are too compliant. I guess the easy way out is the best way for you. What ever happened to individuals, no matter what their heritage, taking responsibility for themselves and their families?
I would rather have undocumented students in the classroom than in the streets….these students are not going anywhere b/c our immigration system is broken. They didn’t choose to come here when they were little kids, why punish them for what their parents chose to do? The government doesn’t punish our children for our mistakes!
Liz - Your argument is incomplete and unsounded. There are moral obligation and moral hazard principles. The moral obligation is to educate the children of illegal immigrants. The moral hazard is the risk rewarding and encouraging behaviors that are destructive to a civil society. Moral obligation is the domain of religions and faith based organizations. Moral hazard is the domain of government and policy making. One cannot and should not merge the two principles together. In a democratic nation based on laws, moral obligation and moral hazard are mutually exclusive principles. I do not reject illegal immigrants and their children, as human beings, out of my moral obligation. I empathize with their plights. I will even help them as appropriate. Yet, from the moral hazard obligation, I will reject each and every attempt by the State to reward illegal immigrants and their children for the transgression committed either by their parents or themselves.
It is you who hasn’t thought this out.It is only logical that it is better for us to educate these children so that they are productive and contributing members of society.It serves us well to provide educational opportunities so that the next generation is a net plus and not anet minus.
Dear Mensarino, A moral obligation to do so - yes. A moral hazard to reward - no. One is a faith based action. The other is an enforcement of laws. However, we are not talking about not whether we should educate these children. The question is equity in payment for children of illegal immigrants against citizens. The question and poll is not about moral obligation. It’s about moral hazard.
Mensarino, if this is so important to you, why don’t you set up a scholarship for illegal alien college funds?
I, however, seethe at the idea of paying for them to get resident tuition. If this trend continues, our state universities will be just like LAUSD, and nobody with any desire for a real education will ever want to take a step on campus. Then what? Fully subsidized college educations for illegals?
Most aren’t saying they can’t go to college, they just have to pay out of state tuition. I’m sure there are many organizations out there (LaRaza, LULAC, Maldef, ACLU, Democrat Party), ACORN that would be willing to give scholarships to such a worthy cause as sending an illegal to collegs.
“One cannot and should not merge the two principles together”- while I wish that could be the case for any issue under the sun, because then everything would be easier to resolve, yet many legal reforms have been born out of a struggle and need to deal with both equal forces, because that is reality!
Most importantly, your argument could make some sense, only a little, if you accept as one of your premises that illegal alien behaviors are “destructive,” and I can say that’s a questionable premise to mount such a grand and narrow accusation.
Also the only thing that encourages illegal aliens to risk their lives as they cross over the border, is a job, like the one you don’t line up to get, such as picking the crops that grace your dinner table. A job, not healthcare or a “free” education. The fact is that they work and no moral obligation or hazard can deny that fact.
Liz - Your point is well taken and I am glad of the civil discussion. I do empathize with the plights of these illegal immigrants. Months ago, the LA Times published an article about a day-in-life of an illegal immigrant street vendor. I asked my son to read that and think about himself in such a situation walking for miles under the sun selling fruits to put food on the table at night. Doing back breaking labor for money that he wouldn’t even think twice to spend on his video games. Thirty years ago, my father chose to immigrate to American. He toiled in factories in the Midwest so that I today have a much better life and an education. When I see individuals sitting outside of Home Depot waiting for work, I don’t see the transgression. Rather, I see a human being waiting for a chance to make little money. It is no difference than seeing a homeless person in Toronto or an old lady begging for money from tourists in Italy. I will help these people when I can. That’s moral obligation. Since we are talking about preferential treatment based on college fees and tuition, it’s a moral hazard. It’s morally wrong to deny education to any child. But it is a moral hazard to give undocumented students preferential treatment better than a citizen or a war veteran.
Your silly.
Since when is charging appropriate fees punishment? My daughter went to the University of Oregon and paid out of state tuition.
We all make choices, even children who are illegal immigrants be they from Mexico, Russia, Iran or other countries. You rely too much on the emotional part of the issue and not enough on the actual issue.
one answer to them: show them the border and ask them to leave! THATS PART OF THE reason why CALF has money problems ,because they DONT PAY TAXES OR OTHER FEES INCLUDING MEDICAL. NO AID BUT MINIMAL LIFE SUPPORT ONLY should be given to the while contacting the I.C.E. for pickup. this wont fix our problem but it will help out a bunch!
OUR SCHOOLS SHOULD BE FOR US CITIZENS AND STUDENTS WITH VISAS TO GO TO SCHOOL HERE.WE THE PEOPLE AND THE NATION SHOULD NOT BE RESPONSIBLE FOR ILLEGALS TO GO TO OUR SCHOOLS . ALL ILLEGALS IN OUR COUNTRY NEED TO GO BACK TO YOUR HOME COUNTRY AND GET YOUR EDUCATION AND THEN IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO ATTEND OUR UNIVERSITIES, GET A LEGAL VISA TO DO SO. THE FREE RIDE IS OVER , IF THE PRESIDENT HAD A BACK BONE HE WOULD ORDER ALL ILLEGALS AND THERE CHILDREN OUT. ILLEGALS THOUGHT THEY WERE GETTING AMNESTY UNDER OBAMA, YEA RIGHT.
I’d love to know what “FREE RIDE ” you’re talking about.
Mike H: (And others …) Please don’t use capital letters. It’s a form of shouting. Your point is just as clear in lower case. Also, Mike, you’re wrong in saying that illegal aliens don’t pay taxes. Any time anyone — legal or not — buys gas, groceries, clothing, movie tickets, etc., they pay taxes. There’s little out there that you can purchase without paying taxes.
To add to his point…some file their personal income taxes with the IRS using a pin number assigned to them by the IRS, because Uncle Sam doesn’t discriminate.
Liz,
No offense but it sounds like you are living in a fantasy world. I don’t see illegals lining up at their local tax preparer to file taxes for the under the table money they’re making. I’m sure they are not. As to whether illegals should pay in-state tuition..I am against it. My brother in-law is currently a Sergeant in the U.S. Marine Corps. He is being medically discharged since losing his leg in Iraq due to an IED. He is from Pennsylvania and is living with us here in CA while receiving treatment. He will be here for some time. He is being told he cannot go to school here without paying out of state tuition until he has been here 18 months. That is exactly what he was told when he tried to register for classes at the beginning of the school year. So, A U.S. Citizen, Decorated U.S. Marine, wounded in combat cannot get in-state tuition but an ILLEGAL alien can? Someone please tell me what’s right about that.
I have the outmost respect for the men and women in uniform, they are the best among us, not to mention that some are not yet U.S. citizens.
I would like to think that I don’t live in a fantasy world, but yes some illegals pay taxes with the IRS and yes some also don’t, so we can go around in a circular argument all day, but we don’t have the actual numbers or data to decide or uncover the net effect illegal aliens have on the U.S., so I can’t say that your are completely 100% right on that remark.
On another note, all laws are not perfect, but even if AB 540 is repealed, your brother-in-law still cannot pay instate tuition. It should not make you feel better to know that other people are struggling just as much or more than your brother-in-law. That is not addressing the root of the problem, just as AB 540 is not addressing the root of the problem. Illegal aliens have to be dealt with in a severe and strict yet just and humane way, that addresses the problems of today and prevents the problems of tomorrow.
Gary, taxes yes. Property taxes (which support schools directly through special assessments) no. Gas taxes are dedicated to highway funds and by law can not be spent on higher education. VLF goes to law enforcement and other dedicated funding streams. The problem is what goes out is way more that they collectively pay in and that is what has folks so upset (enough to use caps). Same anger towards Obama’s free health plan for illegals (regardless of wht he says, congress will water down enforcement to the point no one will puruse it, effectively making it free health care for illegals). Prisons and jails are spending huge sums housing illegals. Hospitals keep closing because of the cash drain by illegals with no insurance (giving it to them is NOT the answer). ICE spends millions trying to control our borders (yes even the Canadian border is a mess). So wher does it end? This may be a drop in the bucket, but it is a start. Again, who do you suppose pays the extra taxes to pay for all this?
They also pay SS and Medicare which many do not benefit from as they are either caught or go back on their own.
Some do..but a LOT work for cash under the table..They also send much of the money they do make back home, thus taking it out of the economy. They also have hight birthrates (more kids in school, on average, than the US citizen),
and often live more than one family to a house (the depleting the property tax base). Oh, and in Santa Ana, they get “free” school breakfast and lunch.
Any form of government taxation counts as reciprocating the tuitition assistance. Property taxes, state taxes, federal taxes all count. Now i can quite clearly understand the tissue with illegal immigrants who do not finish college. HOWEVER it is well known that college graduates make millions more over their lifetimes than high school graduates who make more than dropouts. That difference in pay grades WILL pay back the government over time to the point where the tuition is being reimbursed in spades.
Perhaps the idea of college tuition rates should be factored more on economic data than on morality issues. Because we can argue in circles about the morality, but (in my opinion) collegate graduates only improve the tax efficiency of the government. my example is this, at 10 dollars an hour, you make 20k a year. you fall into the lowest taxable bracket. at 30 dollars an hour you make 60k, a tax bracket that is much higher than the 10 dollar worker.
Without looking at the generic tax structure on direct money disbursement form employers, you will see the general trend of people say that illegal immigrants drain our system. However, if you look at when these undocumented immigrants (a requirement is that they are seeking legal status for the tuition), they give as much to the government as any other middle class worker. Tax ID’s are required for good pay.
So i think long term, funding education for all works in the states favor. I mean lets face it, if they were able to go to college in their home country wouldn’t they have done that already? They obviously are risking getting kicked out for a shot at staying. They undoubtably aren’t planning on leaving.
Mr. Smith, I think anyone who either owns a house or rents a place to live, pays property taxes. Would you think a landlord renting a place to an illegal immigrant family would not include his property tax cost in the rent?
I strongly believe that many undocumented students should be allowed to pay in-state tuition. Let me explain why. Most of the students who we are talking about here are students who have been here since they were very, very young children (in other words, not very many people are entering the United States illegally and jumping right into the public university system. Most come and go straight to work). Yes, they are undocumented, but not out of any choice they made. Many of them, because of their legal status, have not been back to their countries of birth. They are, in every sense, American. I do not think it is right to punish these students because of any choice their parents made for them. To not allow them to be treated as other citizens is to further alienate them and to perpetuate an identity crisis that many of these students feel- that they do not belong here, and they certainly do not belong wherever they were born. I refuse to put political ideologies and empty rhetoric above people. and it is a shame that so many are not only okay with that, but strong advocates for it.
“Punish” is an inaccurate choice of words. They should be allowed to have a U.S. college education if they so chose; however, they should do what is fair and right and pay out-of-state tuition just like everyone else born out of state. A child born in Arizona, for example, is, ” in every sense, American” butl still has to pay out-of-state tuition if attending a college/university in another state.
I agree, treat them as other citizens–pay out-of-state tuition if born out-of-state just like every other citizen. We alienate them if we give them special treatment. They will become stronger people and have greater self-esteem if they achieve knowing they weren’t given special treatment.
Rod - I believe you’re merging moral obligation and moral hazard. As a citizen you should be aware of both and apply them correctly. It is not about political ideologies to reject rewarding the trangression of individuals. Rather, it is the common laws that have existed in nations that brought us out of the Dark Age where rules are based on moral obligation. One can still treat illegal immigrants and their children with dignity afforded by every human out of moral obligation while enforcing the laws to prevent moral hazard. Any argument to ignore the moral hazard brings us back to the Dark Age where we were ruled not by representation but by theological ideals.
HB Mom- I understand what you are saying, and I appreciate that you are not coming from a place of hatred and xenophobia. In response to what you are saying, I think that is fair if the student immigrated late in life- however a person born in another state can, to my knowledge, become a resident of this state and therefore receive the benefits attached to that if they have lived here long enough. I think the same should apply to students who are immigrants. Not better treatment, but definitely equal treatment.
MDW: I agree, but I also think that rules can be and are changed by moral obligation. I am not in favor of “breaking laws”, necessarily, rather I am for changing laws- not for any kind of theocracy or anything of that nature, but, in my opinion, for a more inclusive society.
To Liz,
We are not talking about punishing children. Last time I checked, most college students are at least 17 or 18 years old — these are adults. And even if their parents brought them here illegally, these “adults” are now old enough to know they are breaking the law. And if they are getting admitted into college, apparently they are smart enough to know right from wrong too. Now that these students have had the advantage of a California eduction, they should go home and ask their government to pay for their college. If their own country is 3rd world and war-torn, maybe their own citizens should stay and fix it for themselves instead of sneaking across our border and expecting to get a free ride once they get here.
There is no such thing as a free lunch, (let me know when you find one), anyhow you missed the entire point of my argument, illegal aliens are not cattle that can be moved around like animals. Hard to believe these aliens are people with hearts , so it makes perfectly good human sense why they would not want to leave their parents behind to go back to a 3rd world country they have never ever been acquainted with. Ok, now lets just say you wanna have them take their parents with them, what about if they have US born sisters and brothers? There are many mixed citizenship immigrant families. What about our return on our K-12 investment? Immigration is a complex issue that cannot be dealt with the premise that everything is either white or black, there are a lot of gray areas that cannot be resolved if you approach this issue in that way. The is the law, and it should reflect the complexities of this issue.
give me break OCR, I can smell a troll. If a child is born in the US he is a US citizen, so we are talking about illegals who actually cross the border. So we are saying someone 18 yo, crosses the border then runs to LonG Beach st to enroll in college. How many of those are enrolled in the Cal state system. How about zero.
I believe that if you want to better yourself, you should have an opportunity to do so. That means everyone in our country. We are only as strong as the weakest person in our system.
However, when it comes to “special privileges” such as with competitive positions or grants for education, there must be some incentive for doing right….not reward for those who want to take a shortcut.
I have a masters degree and yet I can’t transfer to another state and take classes without being charged a non-resident fee. I have to do the right thing and jump through the hoops to attain my goal if I want a degree somewhere else.
The root of the problem is not education or health care, but that our immigration system is broken. If we want people to apply for citizenship and have access to “special privileges” then we have to make it timely and financially feasible to do so.
Fix the root problem and the rest will take care of itself.
In no way should illegal aliens be given in state tuition. Someone from Arizona who is a legal resident of this country would not receive this discounted tuition. People who are here illegally and have proven on a daily basis that they have no problem with breaking the law because they disagree with it should receive no special treatment. I understand that there are lots of kids whose parents brought them here when they were very young and they were raised in this country. However, if they are old enough to enter college and intelligent enough to be accepted into a college then they should be intelligent enough to know that they are breaking the law every day by simply staying here and yet they are willing to do that in order to get what they want. It is not something that they are entitled to but they will still march in the streets and demand what they think are their rights.
You are very unrealistic.
you’re wrong, they are intelligent so they are not going to go back to the place that they’re parents risked their lives to leave because those places are terrible. It would be preposterous to make someone go back to a place where they haven’t been to in years. they are intelligent enough to be accepted so they are not idiotic enough to let such an opportunity to improve themselves go when they’ve worked so hard to get accepted.
I do not have a problem with someone trying to better themselves, but I do ask they do it leaglly and follow the laws on the books. Why should a tax paying citizen from another state in our country be forced to pay a higher rate than a person who is here illegally. It does not make any sense.
My friend is a teacher in LAUSD, she has 53 students in one of her classes. The class room has 36 desks. Desks are first come first serve, the rest of the students sit on the floor. 90% of the students in her school are hispanic, and they are not allowed to ask but it appears the kids are born to illgeals here (makes them legal) or they are here illegally. The entire school, 100% of the school qualifies for free lunches. (Although, the students have the newest iPod, or cell phone, or sneakers, or trendy clothes, yet their parents can’t afford lunch). Most of the families of the student body are not paying into the tax system to help pay for their students education. Again, the average taxpayer has to pick up the difference.
if you are talking about the “average taxpayer” then you should refer to the average illegal student. I can guarantee you that they do not have all of those things you just mentioned.
At issue here is not whether or not illegal aliens deserve an education, but rather whether they deserve an education in the U.S. at a reduced rate (much less any rate), right? Our country was founded on a set of laws. Citizens are held to the standard to abide by these laws. Our politicians have failed us in that they pass laws and then fail to enforce those laws. If a person is here without first going through the legal procedures, they are then considered to be here illegally. If they are here illegally, they should be sent home. If they had children here, they should be sent home with their parents and allowed to resume American citizenship at 18 years of age, or at legal emancipation. Everyone has the opportunity to apply for citizenship or a work or student visa. The opportunity to apply for legal entry is available to one and all. Too many of us legal citizens are paying the way of those breaking the law and it really has become too much of a burden on us as individuals, as well as the overwhelming costs to the country as a whole. The state deficit has ballooned during the same time frame that illegal entry into the state skyrocketed. It is no coincidence…
Rod,
So simply by showing up, I get all the rights and opportunities of a US Citizen? What planet are you from? I don’t want to treat them like citizens because they are not US citizens. Many can’t return to their original countries because they broke laws there too, and you are kidding yourself if you think otherwise. I think it is a very big assumption on your part to assume these students have been in the US their whole lives. Yes, some have, but certainly not all. The real problem, as I see it, is we don’t really know who these students are. Many illegal aliens have multiple sets of documents at their disposal, so they can be whoever they need to be at any given moment. Many use common names (Juan Garcia) so they can claim a case of mistaken identity. Many use initials (J Garcia) for the same reason. I’m tired of footing the bill for these illegals.
La Habra Mom, hardly any illegal immigrant here gets all the rights and opportunities of a UC citizen.
sorry, I meant to write US citizen
La Habra Mom, again, I am not advocating for all immigrants to get in-state tuition, I am advocating for those who were brought to the United States as children illegally. They should not be punished for the choices their parents made. There are ways to verify how long a child has been here: very simply, if a child was enrolled in schools in this state from kindergarten through high school, then they clearly were brought as children- it is rare that children have false identities, because they are not working and do not need to- they are enrolled in schools under their actual identity. Maybe you are tired of “footing the bill”, but if we don’t, then who will? I am willing to foot the bill if it means more students get access to higher education.
Rod, they are not “punished.” One is punished when what he/she is entitled to is taken away. They are not entitled to enjoy in-state tuition (or, for that matter, to vote, to apply for financial aid, …) to begin with. Based on your logic, it seems that we should even grant them U S citizenship, or they are “punished.”
Illegals should pay out of state tuition like every other nonresident.!
illegals should not even be in the usa period.
Illegals should not get receive any social benefits. Not only should they pay a higher fee for being here illegally they should have to pay a fee to attend our public grade schools too.
Yes, interesting that all the arguments are about university fees. What about all the elementary, secondary and high school fees that are paid for through property taxes of the legal citizens in any given school district? Pay for play. Many school districts are upside down because the state has not forwarded monies collected for education, and instead has kept them for other projects, ‘to be reimbursed at a later date’. Just because someone is born here doesn’t make it OK to milk the system if they didn’t pay into it.
It is the law that they be educated.Change the law if you don’t like it.
well stated.
I understand that many of these students (although many have also come here as teenagers) have been here a long time, and are basically American. However, I think that if a kid has been raised here, that they should be able to obtain some kind of legal status.
I think the solution lies in changing immigration laws, not rewarding illegal behavior by providing public benefits anyway. Even though some of the students did not choose to come here, they should still have to obtain legal status before receiving benefits.
Additionally, I don’t think legal residents should have to compete for space in a college program against people who, legally, should not even be here.
what “public benefits”? any undocumented student that hasn’t graduated high school has a LEGAL, AS IN IT’s THE LAW, right that they must go to school. That’s not a benefit, it’s the law. Call your lawmaker and tell them to change the law if you don’t like it. It seems to me that you’re saying that even a legal student is given a “benefit” for being given a K-12 education?
If this issue was solved, the US would not be in the health care crisis we are in right now. The US “open door” policy, or rather, the “revolving door” policy where we turn our heads at illegal aliens right in front of our face has got our county into a huge mess. Ask any person you know in the health care industry, the prison/jail/law enforcement industry, or in education at any level. These illegal aliens have ruined California, Texas, New Mexico and Arizona, and have done a heck of number on most other states too.
our heath system is in the shape it is because of the pharmaceutical and insurance companies gouging the american people, california is broke because of irresponsible spending that doesn’t include saving an immigrants life. what’s next are you going to blame the current financial crisis on the immigrants too? get your facts straight don’t let people who don’t know what they are talking about fill your head with false facts.
Thank Obamaism !
President Obama didn’t push through AB 540.
blah….blah….blah….all you people complaining are just wasting your time and energy!!!
how long and how many times have we been on this same subject? but did anything change? NO!!! Illegals are STILL getting free passes and milking the system. Furthermore, how many hispanic/mexicans politicans are there in CA that are pushing for free handouts to illegals? Plenty!
A great argument for the status quo to change. One small step, but at least a very public step in the right direction.
Yes, they should receive the resident rate. Many undocumented people pay state and federal taxes yet get no tax refund.
I also like how so many complain about their kids having to pay out of state fees because of something so arbitrary like not being born in whatever state their kids go to school. Do you think the undocumented feel the same way?
Finhead,
Not sure when was the last time you went to college, but there are government-funded programs specifically designed to aid families who have never had a family member in college before. Most of these programs in our area are provided in Espanol. There are scholarships specifically for these students only. There are jobs, special mentoring, special tutoring, special financial assistance for these students, regardless of the crummy grades they earned in high school. However if you are white, middle-class, with working parents who attended college, you are on your own. And you can forget any scholarship unless you are the next greatest athlete in the world. Now the US News & World Reports stated in arn article released today that these particular students don’t even manage to graduate from the college that all these special programs are helping them get into. Nothing about this is new. I know for a fact that I attended college with many adult illegal aliens and all were much older than I was, many in fact well into their 30’s and 40’s and this was 20 years ago. Why would that have changed? It hasn’t.
No offense La Habra Mom, but check your own times yourself. Not every illegal immigrant student is in their 30s and 40s. I’m 17 and i go to college myself, illegal myself, pay my own taxes. and i sit with 30+ year olds. Maybe things haven’t changed completely, but they indeed have changed.
Why should anyone who INVADES another country receive anything free? It’s going to change very fast
Illegals should not be schooled no matter their age
Wow American-ized? REally?? “INVADES?” Isn’t that pushing it a little? Invades: to enter forcefully as an enemy; go into with hostile intent. No illegal immigrant who comes here to work or study comes as an enemy. They want a better life, not to become an enemy of anyone.
Gary how would anyone know whether the student is here legally . In California public college enrollment, illegals cannot be asked their legal status. Another law designed to hide the real numbers of illegals in our public education facilities.
Gareeyph: You’re repeating what I said near the top of my story. No one knows how many illegal immigrant students are enrolled in California’s public colleges and universities.
even if they were required to say that they’re illegals, they still aren’t stealing any of your money because AB540 students cant get any financial aid from the government.
So what can be we do to change that? How do we make at a requirement? I don’t see how asking for legal status is discriminating. Afterall, don’t we ask if documents can be provided to prove we can legally work in the U.S?
it all starts with the anchor babies and cost us money to support the rest of there familys
My mom, my dad, my aunts, my uncles, my cousins, my in-laws all came to America LEGALLY. If all 50+ of my family members can come to America legally, I don’t see why these illegals can’t muster up the guts to go to INS and DO THE RIGHT THING.
I am not being a bigot/racist. I am not discriminating. I come from a family of immigrants. Most of which became citizens. All I want is for these people to DO THE RIGHT THING. Pay your dues and become legal citizens.
Also, I’m tired of being given fake Social Security Numbers and all I can do is say “Oh, I can’t open your checking account with this ‘TIN’ you wouldn’t happen to have another number, would you?”
I wish I could report them but I don’t want to get fired.
Baffled: it is great that your family was lucky (emphasis on luck) enough to be able to be one of the few families that are able to come to this country legally, but unfortunately, that is out of the question for a lot of people. it is a matter of survival for some, and they literally do not have the time to seek out the resources to enter this country legally.
This “Poll” is a fraud. You have hundreds illegal immigrant students with nothing to do (they do not study) voting ‘No!” Lets see what happens when AB 540 actually goes to the ballot with ‘legitimate U.S. citizens’ … individuals who came here legally. But then again … most illegals can and do vote in liberal, Democratic California. Just look at how Laura Sanchez got elected.
Edward: Apparently, you didn’t even skim the story before voting. Or read the results of the poll. There aren’t “hundreds” of people voting no. Through 8:44 p.m., there were 135 votes. And you have no idea who voted. Nor do I. Also, the story doesn’t stay that AB 540 is going on the ballot. I simply asked whether people think illegal immigrant students should be denied residence tuition, provided through 540.
you tell him Gary, is he even aware that illegal immigrants can’t vote?
Let’s get one thing straight. If a person is here illegally there is only one benefit they should get. That is ride to the border or plane ticket to their native country.
As far children of illegal aliens, they are still here illegally. The 14th Amendment of the Constitution needs to be written to deny citizenship to children born to persons that cannot prove they are in the country legally.
I define illegal aliens as ANYONE that is here illegally. If I was to go to most any other nation on the face of this earth and did so illegally I would probably incur fines, deportation and possibly jail time. So why should the United States be any different?
well why don’t you go ahead and try to get that amendment amended.
Robert: You are flat out wrong. Many very successful and thriving countries have very generous immigration policies. In fact, the ones that have the most isolationist, nationalistic immigration policies seem to be the ones that most people are fleeing from, because that is a backwards mentality. Sad to see that your standard is intolerant and blind inhumanity.
Because they’re ILlegal and shouldn’t be here in the first place - that’s why!
I find it pretty amazing how this debate makes people feel, it can bring out the best of you or the worse that’s for sure. There is no anti immigrant person who doesn’t hide their true nature behind the law or the fact that it’s costing them their tax payer money. “They should be sent back with all their children”, “I’m tire of funding the illegal people”, “why should my daughter pay outstate tuition and this illegal people get a free pass” I can go on and on.
You know I’m not going to try to reason with any of you because there is absolutely no point in doing so. But there is one thing I would really appreciate from all of you immigrant critics. Say it like it is.
Say that you don’t appreciate illegal people because they are different than you, because you just can’t stand them because quite frankly you don’t understand them. Let’s be honest now, would you feel any different if they if they came here legally? All 12 million of them!
Come on now, be honest! The fact is and with all due respect and in my opinion, racism exists in you but you won’t admit it, because racism exists in this country now more than ever.
Even if we try to call ourselves a civilize nation, we are not. We fail to understand our needs; we fail to have compassion for others because no one has compassion for us or so we say. I am a tax payer who yes helps fund these terrible illegal people, just as I helped fund the illegal war on Iraq that president bush invented (in my opinion) yet we supported him without regard and re elected him because we were freeing the Iraqi people from tyranny yet we can’t free the illegal people from our own tyranny.
Yes it is sad, sad indeed.
I know you probably don’t care to hear this but if you want to make a change in the world as we all like to say. Start with the man or woman in the mirror. Start in your community, start with your country. Start today!
HP - This is not about racism. The principle of moral hazard. It applies equally regardless of race, ethnicity, and nationality. Your argument is unsupported.
I disagree with you, but if you really want a smart prespective check out paden’s comment on top comment at 7:45
To HP- I am a hispanic immigrant that is here legally and I am against illegal immigration and allowing illegal immigrants to pay in state fees. Are you going to call me a racist too?
that would depend on your reasoning, but please tell me why? please explain. I would be happy to hear what you have to say. just do me a favor show me the real you. don’t hide behind the law like everyone else.
since I didn’t get a reply, I would just say this mimi, just because you are a hispanic immigrant doesn’t mean you can’t be racist. infact I know there are many hispanics who are racist, don’t lie to yourself. I do wish I had a chance to hear your reply, I have a feeling you would prove me rigth doing so.
unfortunatly for you being a racist (if indeed you are) agains your own race doesn’t make you look any different infront of the white race, by the way hispanics are from the white race they’re just not white enough for many.
I will say this I have many friends and family whom are white and are not racist please don’t confuse my words thinking that I feel all whites are. in fact t many of the comments in this forum in favor of the immigrants are from white people.
Hey HP, I don’t want to change the world. And frankly, I am tired of being the one our politicians turn to when they want more money to support their pet projects including illegal immigration. Call me a racist, I don’t really care what label you wish to put on me….legally speaking, illegals are criminals….so try to speak to my sense of compassion…..and lets just see how Mexico treats those who enter Mexico illegally or have visas that expire, so tell me I have alck of compassion, but I would rather look out for the interests of my own children, then those of the world, because you see, my wife and I only had children when we knew we could support them, imagine that,……and save me the apples to oranges comparison of your supporting the “illegal” war in Iraq..last time I looked, Congress approved that action and sadly, they do control our tax redistribution, BUT, they have yet to be stupid enough to legitimize illegals.
ok then I will, you in my opinion are a racist, but at least you admitted. go ahead and keep up your fight agains the immigrants just do it with the racist flag up so everyone knows what your real motivation is.
Are you for real? Who made you judge and jury about a person’s motivation. calling those who disagree with you “racisist” is just dumb. Argue your points and stop name calling.
HP you went too far by calling undocumented “terrible illegal people” Undocumented people (MOST) are not terrible. Some of them are amazing human beings. Just like not all Middle Eastern people are not terrorists. Even the most regular poor,war torn people in Pakistan would treat you like a King were you to be a guest in their homes. Every label has their own bad seeds. just like there are “terrible” Americans there are also truly wonderful Americans.
Greetings HP,
Nothing like gross generalities, everyone who disagrees with you must be a racist.
In my own case, I oppose in state tuition for anyone not here legally. I have no problem with allowing those here legally, to enjoy in state tuition. My logic is simple - there isn’t enough money to go around. We’ve just increased sales taxes 10-15% depending on county. We need to cut somewhere. It’s as good a place to start.
I believe our immigration policies at current are a disaster. We allow far too few legal immigrants, and allow far too many here illegally to use up our resources. (Yes some pay taxes, some don’t! - doesn’t matter.
I certainly would favor reducing (or in these times holding the line) on tuition and fees, for all here legally (regardless of sex, race, or sexual preference, for that matter). Perhaps the savings incurred by charging those not legal residents of the state of California, the same tuition as out of state applicants.
There are folks out there, non-citizens, here legally, from the same countries that provide us most of our illegal immigrants, as well as citizens from those same countries who also oppose, the in-state tuition. Many of them know and understand these illegal immigrants as well as they know “citizens”. Are they racist too?
One thing many liberals seem to miss (IMO) is that for many “conservatives” and moderates, it isn’t about race, it’s about money. We now live in a bankrupt state, by any financial measure except the slight of hand that prevents California from filing for bankruptcy. The current administration, fortunately has funneled billions of $$ (about 8 billion) of the stimulus directly to the state of California, and even with that, this year, the state still hasn’t REALLY balanced the budget. What happens next year, or the following if the administration and Congress doesn’t through another $8 Billion to the state? There goes a couple hundred thousand state workers, - from clerical, to K-12 teachers, to university faculty and other employees.
We must trim costs. Budgets are causing the UC and Cal State schools to cut total enrollment. Legal residents of California should have first shot, and lowest fees. Everyone else should pay more. It’s that simple.
True, many illegal immigrants wouldn’t be able to afford a UC at the out of state rates. Not a problem. Most UC schools have less than 5% of their student bodies coming from out of state/ out of country. Replace those illegals with the low fees, with out of state applicants at the higher fees. For those not paying attention, that works out to almost $20,000 extra money per out of state student (compared to in-state).
Think this way - each year, for each illegal immigrant who either pays full fees, or is replaced by an out of state person paying full fees, would allow, say 4 in-state students to receive a $5000 scholarship each year.
But, in reality, it might just keep the systems from cutting enrollment, laying off faculty, etc.
You need to understand that not everything done is done out of fear or loathing. Some of us just believe in common sense.
There is a lot more racism in Mexico than there is in the United States. Mexico’s population is 98% Latino. Where are all of the black people in Mexico?
Where are all of the white people in Mexico? Where are all of the Asian people in Mexico?
we need to stop feeding the illegals sense of entitlement. The state of CA is broke and the welfare, foodstamps, education etc is a big part of the reason. too many loopholes in their favor. They can get welfare because we can’t check their status? We might hurt their feeilngs? Thanks ACLU. They have used us to much for too long and most of us are beyond fed up.
Vicky, your post is completelly inaccurate, you are just missinforming here, please hit the books and come back when you have more information to have a decent debate.
Ahh, Jerry,
I take it you have hit the books. Please provide us all your proof that illegal immigrants are not costing this state a small fortune. Yes, one can argue that they (some, anyway) pay taxes, but ultimately immigrants (legal or otherwise) tend to be a financial drain. Subsequent generations of those people will indeed prove to be profitable to the State, but, sorry, right about now, we can’t afford the long term investment - we (California) are broke.
Of course we could find a way to pay for the subsidy for their (illegals) tuition. Perhaps we should put a 5% tax on the pensions of all state employee related pension programs. That should easily cover it. Or, we could cut faculty salaries to cover it. Or maybe we just double the car registration fees (again).
Again, the ultimate problem is to paraphrase Top Gun: “Your state is cutting checks its economy can’t cash.” One more time, with enthusiasm, “We just can’t afford them all.”
hahaha that’s funny. you can’t get welfare if you’re ILLEGAL. You can’t get foodstamps if you’re ILLEGAL. Last time I checked, the majority of people on welfare are White people. Recently, the restaurant I work in has adopted an EBT program where people receiving food stamps can purchase a hot meal in our restaurant. The latino people who come in usually come in walking or on the bus. But all the white people who come in and pay with EBT are wearing brand name clothes, they’re driving a relatively new car, and have a Blackberry in their hand. They obviously don’t need food stamps, but what can I do? I’m just a cashier.
It makes no difference how the illegal immigrants get here. Once they have children on US soil the kids are now citizens. That takes advantage of our system.
Vincent,
While illegals (sorry, no offense but I’m tired of typing illegal immigrants), aren’t eligible for all programs, they do use up a fortune of services, including medical, and educational. And we are talking millions of illegals, right here in California (at least 2 million, I believe, is a safe number?)
Just think of all the schools that could be closed and sold off, and the smaller class sizes that could be had, if illegals were gone, or did not have access to our educational system. It costs between $150 million and $300 million to build a high school in most highly populated counties in California. If there are only 100,000 illegals in high school in our state, and you figure, 3000 students per high school, then, over the years, we have built an extra 300 high schools (and probably 3 times that number of K-8 schools), to house the larger student population. Now, given those schools have a long life, we are still talking about:
300 high schools @ $200M = $60 billion, and say another $40 billion for K-8.
That’s $100 billion over say 25 years - $4 billion a year. Of course it’s not that simple, there are all kinds of reasons for building new schools, population shifts, etc. Still, we also need teachers for those 300,000+ illegal’s who are students - at an average class size of, say 30 (for round numbers), well, that’s an extra 10,000 teachers - which even at a mere $50K a year (including all benefits), each, there goes an extra 1/2 $billion. And so on.
And never mind the load on our emergency rooms, the primary medical system for illegal immigrants.
It ultimately still comes down to: They are too expensive, we just can’t afford it any more.
And it likely won’t get better. Every year, California becomes more inhospitable to business, driving out more companies, be it due to taxes, environmental laws, unfixed traffic congestion, you name it. California has been hit harder than all but one or two other states this time, and is likely to recover even slower than most, except maybe Michigan.
We’re broke, no more “free lunch”. -a
As to the EBT folks you mention, programs like food stamps etc., are offered to “legals” when their income drops below a level. Remember these programs were not designed inherently as something one gets forever. Most people in California, who have lost their jobs are eligible, as intended. It is not required that they sell their house (or lose it to foreclosure), or to sell their car, or burn their clothes, to qualify. And the vast majority of those same people will find new jobs in the next year, and no longer receive such aid.
When i was laid off and had COBRA insurance premiums of 1200/mo, I checked on getting insurance from the county. I was eligible, but had to pay the first 1000/mo in expenses, before their coverate kicked in..I said, “no thanks”, yet, a pregnant illegal can get pregnant, get free pre-natal care, free hospitalization to give birth, and WIC. Oh yeh, since the baby is now a “citizen”, they now get to collect benefits on behalf of the baby…there is something wrong with this picture.
Last time I checked, the majority of people who pay taxes in this country are white people.
I voted no because a US citizen from Las Vegas, NV would be charged more than what amounts to a foreign student attending a California school. That just seems fishy.
HP wrote: Let’s be honest now, would you feel any different if they if they came here legally? All 12 million of them?”
The answer: YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That’s the WHOLE point, come here LEGALLY, HAVE A GOOD-PAYING JOB AND SUPPORT YOURSELVES AND YOUR BABIES!!!!!!!
I don’t think the answer is yes for you, be honest! Say it the way it is show everyone how you really feel, stop hiding behind the law. Because most if not all immigrants that I know come here to do that, support themselves and their babies. You know I wonder if all these kids were not allow to attend colleges with reasonable tuitions what the option would be for them, a life of crime perhaps, then you would very likely criticized them for that. Is there any satisfying you in this subject.
I think not! I think you just want them gone. I mean we are talking about people whom are trying to better themselves, are we not? People whom are trying to get a career so they can become a taxpayer just like yourself. You know once they accomplish that maybe you can relate to them, because by then they would be an educated person just like you, they would be able to speak English and tell you their story and you can tell them yours and of course start paying taxes just like you.
I mean isn’t that what we do as a country, we go to other countries to teach, we donate billions of dollars to other countries to help them better themselves. We show them our technologies to help them grow. But we can’t bear the thought of helping immigrants do the same.
Just a thought
HP lets get it straight……we in the US help lots and lots of immigrants……how about you use the proper term here…our concern is with ILLEGALS. There is a reason ALL countries have immigration policies. So that they can control their growth and thus their costs. Additional requirements account for allowing immigrants that can add to the existing society and become part of the existing society. We do NOT need to be overrun by uneducated illegals who add little if anything to our society, fail to learn the language (and then demand everything be bilingual to help them), and act as a HUGE drain on our resources.
No HG we are not Santa Claus, or at least, we are fed up with the role, for that, perhaps the illegals should keep going North.
Is it really matter that ” no one knows how many illegal immigrant students qualify for resident tuition”. If you could not prove to be California resident, you pay non resident. Is that simple. How can we do that? What is the required steps? Stop talking just do it.
You recently stated on the front page that wasn’t it a great thing that there were more than 45 countries represented at Chapman University, yet my nephew who was born and raised here, has a 4.1 average can’t get in. Reason? Because colleges like Chapman and all the other ones love to have foreign and out of state students attend because they have to pay higher fees.
Anyone here illegally should not be permitted to attend any of our educational institutions - kindergarten through college!
I don’t believe that your nephew couldn’t get into Chapman because the university accepts some international students. (Note that I said international, not undocumented.) Chapman accepts roughly 50 percent of all applicants. The most elite schools accept less than 20 percent of their applicants.
Chapman is cake to get in to…and aren’t they private? Sounds like your nephew has other problems with his admissions file. Private would mean they would charge the same for in vs. out of state students.
Maybe we should grant anyone who was a minor when they were brought here through someone else’s decision and who has grown up here, attended at least 3 years of high school here and achieved at least a GED here a legal immigration status. Then we wouldn’t have to discuss whether people without legal status should get an opportunity to get an education.
Hey, maybe we should model our immigration laws on Mexico’s immigration laws.
In my opinion if they are illegals, and want to attend any collegue, they should serve the country first for at least 2 years in the army.
then they would have the right to have the same priveleges as a native.
IF YOUR POST IS LONGER THAN A FEW LINES YOU NEED TO LEARN HOW TO WRITE.
AS A LEFT OF LIBERAL DEMOCRAT I SAY IN THESE TOUGH ECONOMIC TIMES WE MUST REPEAL THE TUITION.
well looks like we have more hate than love, i dont get why is it can drive down the street and see a caucasian homless person asking for money ,but an illegal selling just about anything, why is it that they claim they steal job that no ones els wants,eh…. this world is so full of it , there is no such thing as a full american no matter how hard you think you are or how white you skin isno such thing, califorina was origianlly part of mexico,but hey hey no ones calling that out… hmm vietnamese , chinese, japanese, mexicans,arib, who cares theres a reason this country is so great its because its made of diffrent people not just all white skin please color is not the problem here its ignorance…
What we really need is a less educated poplulace to pay even less taxes and to create an even larger burden on California. As we all know education is way over rated and really is for suckers anyway.
scpet,
LOL, in many cases that is so true. Many UCLA, USC grads end up in a regular jobs anyhow making 50k-65k a year…which many people with out university leve education earn anyway.
If they are international (illegal) students here, they should be charged the MOST, not the same.
Price structure should be:
California legal resident
Out of state legal resident
International student
Why doesn’t California do like the rest of the country then maybe we won’t be bankrupt. Why do we keep giving away the farm…or wait we don’t have a farm, we have state.
OCtimes: I’m not sure you understand what international student means. It refers to students who are in the US legally, on student visas. They typically come from Europe, Asia and India. The term international student doesn’t refer to undocumented immigrants.
I think he’s suggesting they should be treated like international students and charged accordingly.
Many of these undocumented students have resided in the States since they were very, very small. Few even remember Mexico, and most had nothing to do with the decision to cross the border illegally. Yes, AB540 allows these students to attend college, without paying out of state fees. However, they receive NO FINANCIAL AID from the government, meaning that they have to foot the entire bill themselves or win a private scholarship, which is difficult to do.
If they applied to an out of state school, i.e. New York, they would have to pay out of state fees just like everybody else–except, once again, they would receive no Financial Aid.
On another note, a bi-partisan study found that about three quarters of illegal immigrants pay taxes. In fact, it was estimated that the revenues from these taxes equaled 7 billion dollars. It should also be noted that the illegals who do contribute do not receive Federal benefits, i.e. Social Security, even though they have paid into them.
Lastly, it is dangerous to point to one specific group and blame it for our country’s woes. That type of rhetoric was prolific in Germany prior to WWII. Our country’s problems will not magically disappear if illegals are ousted. What we need to do is examine immigration laws and consider reforming them.
By the way,in case my ethnicity and economic status are brought into question, I’m Anglo, in the 35% tax bracket, and I am a direct descendent of a Mayflower passenger.
BTW, despite my other posts on yes. I do think one caviat needs to be added.
Illegal immigrants should pay out of state tuition, however the government should LOAN them the money to reduce the tuition to in state tuition. Should the student drop out of college, they should have to pay the tuition they used. Upon graduation, the government could forgive the loan seeing as said student has a degree and will be paying into the government at a reasonable rate (with respect to everyone else).
If they live here and finish college, reward them as they are going to pay everything back. However, if they fail then they owe back what they borrowed.
icedamericano wrote: “Maybe we should grant anyone who was a minor when they were brought here through someone else’s decision”
Answer: NO - my parents made decisions for me that were wrong and I had to deal with those decisions (like I’m sure many others parents did, just like me)… you do what is RIGHT… BECOME A U.S. CITIZEN LEGALLY like millions of others have done if you’re serious…
Hey guys, why don’t we just prohibit all people not born in California from getting in-state tuition ever? That would save lots of money, right? Who’s in favor of that?? If not, why not?
Why shouldn’t they be allowed in-state tuition? They pay taxes like everybody else.
Contrary to the anti-immigrant rhetoric, illegal immigrants are not eligible for welfare, unemployment, or food stamps. They don’t get free medical care. Although hospitals are required to provide emergency care to everyone, including immigrants, hospitals do charge everyone. It is not free care. Despite the fact that they are tax-payers, illegal immigrants cannot take advantage of the social programs their taxes support. They are not eligible for health programs like Medicare. I personally know many immigrants who are paying their bills like everyone else.
The California Community Foundation in Los Angeles has released a report stating that immigrants make up nearly half the Los Angeles workforce and contribute nearly 40 percent of the county’s gross regional product. Despite lower-than-average wages, immigrants also account for more than one-third of the county’s spending power.
According to the California Immigrant Policy Center immigrants pay approximately $5.2 billion in state income taxes each year; they contribute an additional $4.6 billion in sales taxes. Immigrants in California have a combined federal tax contribution of more than $30 billion annually. In California,the average immigrant-headed household contributes a net $2,679 annually to Social Security, which is $539 more than the average US-born household.
Immigrant households and businesses paid approximately $300 billion in federal, state, and local taxes: $165 billion in federal income taxes, $85 billion in state and local income taxes, and $50 billion in business taxes. (Report authored by Stephen Moore, Senior Economics Writer at the Wall Street Journal and former director of Fiscal Policy Studies at the Cato Institute, and Richard Vedder, Distinguished Professor of Economics at Ohio University). Since 1996, the I.R.S. has distributed about 15 million Individual Taxpayer Identification Numbers to enable people without Social Security numbers to pay taxes.
More than 75 percent of immigrants, arrive in their prime working years. According to the Social Security Administration, illegal immigrants have contributed more than $400 billion to the Social Security fund since the 1980s.
About 28 percent of L.A. County residents are baby boomers who will eventually need to be replaced in the workforce, many of them by immigrants. With more than 80 million baby boomers retiring in the next 20 years, it will be these people who will provide a social security check so that these people won’t die in poverty.
Immigrants create companies that hire workers and create economic activities at higher rates than the native born. Economist William Ford of Middle Tennessee State University calculates that illegal immigrants contributed $428 billion dollars to the nation’s $13.6 trillion gross domestic product in 2006.
Let’s stop the demonizing of immigrants.
C L - You have failed to read and understand the difference between immigrants and illegal immigrants. No one, including myself, as a immigrant many years ago, demonizes immigrants. We just don’t like the State to reward illegal behaviors. Since you’re quoting economic data, do you understand that economists compiled data based on statistic? Do you understand the statistical parameters or assumptions that went into the calculation? Before you based your argument and conclusion on economic data, you should at least understand what it means.
MDW,
Stop thinking like you are the smartest one out of all, That stuff its self explanatory, and what do you mean by WE? Who’s WE? it should be “I”. Also you were an immigrant many years ago? LOL, once an immigrant always an immigrant, you can assimilate as much as you can to this country but you will still be an immigrant!!
Nice sleight of hand there, C L. You are deliberately blurring the line between LEGAL immigrants and ILLEGAL immigrants. By doing so, your facts and statistics become meaningless because readers don’t know when you’re talking about just illegal aliens, when you’re talking about just legal immigrants, and when you’re talking about both legal and illegal immigrants.
We need comprehensive immigration reform, specifically reform in the area of making it easier for farm workers to come here and work legally, and then go home when they’re ready to. Since we haven’t had a good policy for this in place for decades, they come, work, and stay instead of come, work, and go home. Those who wish to become legal residents . . . there are ways and means, legal means. Join our military: that will get them educated in what it takes to be a good citizen like nothing else. English won’t be optional, though. It will also provide for an education or trade learned.
Illegal immigrants may pay some taxes, but most don’t pay the significant taxes we pay (Fed & State income, Social Security, Property, etc.
Public College education is a limited and expensive taxpayer subsidized benefit. Why should we provide a limited benefit to those that are not here legally. There are American citizens that can’t get into UCLA and USC. Sorry, but American citizens should get priority.
It’s not racist to not want to reward illegal immigrants with government benefits. There are limits to the number of people our country and infrastructure can support.
Rick4us,
Illegal immigrant do pay taxes in a way. Since those that you talk about get deducted from their check’s, besides the government keeps all the money from the unfiled tax returns.
Yeh, I’m sure the guys standing out in front of Home Depot report all their “1099″ income while working as “independant contractors”.
For the ones that actually receive a paycheck from a company, they can’t get around the payroll taxes, but they can file “exempt” and not have income taxes withheld. Most of them are making wages that wouldn’t be at a taxable rate anyway.
umm how do you expect illegals to pay all those taxes you just wrote if undocumented immigrants CANT pay ss because they are not issued one and property because they cant legaly live in the US
What part of illegal dont the legistaters get, send them home! Enforce the immigration laws!
I meant UCLA and UCI. Not USC, no offense to Trojan fans.
Thousands of classes are closing for all students because there isn’t enough money and they want to give illegal aliens a discount? This is absurd!
Lemme ge this straight. We’re speaking about criminals! Illegal! Any way you wanna spin it, they broke the law. Why should I not allow you to die outside the ER? I didn’t break the law to get you in here!
I just hope your not a religious man!
You are absolutely right JODH2O. We Californians voted overwhelmingly to stop handouts to illegals. We recognized that they are in fact criminals. Try the same thing in Mexico..ya right..just ask the people from El Salvador that get caught around the southern border of our compassionate leach to the South. Kick out the idiots in politics, get some reasonable judges and turn off the free handouts..
How about our President and Congress deal with stopping the automatic citizenship for bambinos dropped in this Country by illegals…..nice start.
and im willing to bet that those illegal wished to be in the ER bc they just cant wait to no be ablt to pay all those bills they know they cant pay
When I moved back here, I had to pay out of state tuition and I’m ‘citizen’ born and raised in the USA.
A person living in here ILLEGALLY can get in-state tuition rates??? The stupidity in Sacramento boggles my mind.
I guess there are 2 AK’s? Can California handle two of us?
There is no difference from letting out-of-state students who establish residency pay at in-state rates. In fact, it would save a lot more money if we prohibited all out-of-state students like myself from being able to establish residence. Now who’s in favor of that? Anybody? If you don’t, then your motivations clearly have more to do with xenophobia than budgetary concerns or fairness.
yes I agree 100%
They don’t pay taxes? How untrue is this statement! A good number of “them” are even putting money into social security and that money my friends, is money “they” are never going to see again. You guys should get your facts straight before posting ignorant comments. I say yes, these kids should get in state tuition, not just for a better today , but for a better future as well.
Don’t know how old you are but if you are under the age of 45, I doubt you will see any money from social security either. Yeah, they do pay taxes by stealing an American Citizen’s identity and giving it to their employer. This causing major problems for the person who’s identity was stolen. Maybe it will happen to you and then you can post your fairy tales.
JBD,
So if it causes many nightmare’s why doesn’t the government give the tax return to the individual that got his identity stolen? Government gets a huge chunk of money of people that don’t file, why not pay the their education with that?
As long as they don’t steal it for some other more dark criminal activities ( loans, acces to bank accouts, credit cards acces etc…) I wouldn’t mind, all I have to do is send back the letter from the I.R.S stating that those are not my earnings, is that a major problem for you? Why don’t you just say i hate people with brown skin, that might be a better argument.
not the ones I know. They PAY ALL THEIR TAXES EVEN KNOWING that THEY WONT get a tax refund.
Ok well those of us in college who are citizens of the state and pay taxes should take a back seat to the ones who are just getting here then. Remember this doesn’t just affect those poor kids who are just coming to America.
I am the child of public education; I came to this country in 1999 knowing NO English AT ALL. Through hard work and long nights with a dictionary next to me I was able to graduate from High School with High Honors and was accepted to the University of California, Irvine. I was able to graduate from UCI because I was given scholarships and many grants to be able to finish in four years. During the course of those four years, I met and befriended several AB540 students that were struggling EVERYDAY to make enough money to pay next quarter’s fees.
Remember:
AB540 Students do not qualify for CalGrants – There goes around 9,000 a year
AB540 Students do not qualify for Pell Grants - There goes around 5,000 a year
AB540 Students do not qualify for ANY FINANCIAL AID – There goes 10k+ in subsidized and un-subsidized loans
Just in Grants AB540 students DO NOT GET 14,000 a year.
The average OUT –OF-STATE additional fee is around 15,000 – 16,000 a year
So, comparing these numbers AB540 students are actually paying OUT-OF-STATE tuition because they simply do not QUALIFY for those GRANTS.
Now, all of you here that voted NO let me ask you guys one simple question…..
DO YOU RATHER HAVE EDUCATED “ILLEGALS” at a price of roughly 15,000 per year, or INCARCERATED “ILLEGAL” costing the state upwards of 50,000 – 60,000 a year? From which pool does California benefit the most?
If your answer is
“THEY SHOULDN’T EVEN BE HERE”
Then I’m sorry for wasting your time but illegal or not illegal immigrants from all over the world WILL ALWAYS COME TO THE UNITED STATES IN HOPE OF PROSPERITY AND A BETTER FUTURE.
Build a WALL and THEY will find a big enough ladder to climb over it. Send 10,000 border patrol officers to the border and THEY will find the CROOKED one to let them in.
Your position is not a college level debate or a thesis supporting a position. Rather, it is an emotional appeal to the mass on the plights of AB540 students. Your appeal fails to take into account that citizens and legal residence students face the same economic condition you describe. As a graduate of UCI, please look at other state universities across the nations from Arizona to Michigan, Alabama, Mississippi, etc. before jumping into such an emotional conclusion. The poll is not about denying educational opportunity to students like you. It is about the preferential treatment of AB540 students comparing to out-of-state students. If you identify your university in the post, write your position in a way to honor its reputation.
MDW,
Clearly his position is against it. Also, illegal aliens don’t get any financial aid or any other benefit from the government since they don’t have a good social.
They dont have any social or else they wouldnt be illegal!
MDW - This is the comment section of a website, not a college classroom. And after reading Juanchito’s comment, he definitely has a supported position. For someone so quick to dismiss an argument because the author uses “emotional appeal” and jumps “into such an emotional conclusion,” I’m guessing you know nothing about arguments. And I’m sure you didn’t even read his comment either.
The answer to the question above would be Yes. If they attended high school in California for 4-years and live in California for more then 5- years. Doesn’t that make you a California resident? If not, in that case my little nephew who is 1-years old would he be CA resident? The majority of the illegal students who want to persue a higher education where brought here when they were kids. Yes, little kids when they didn’t know from right to wrong. How in the world would they know that coming to America without the correct documents was wrong?!
You guys must understand it is not easy living as an illegal when basically you have adapted into the American Culture and some people make you feel like you are “worthless.” I knew numerous illegal students in high school, that wanted to join the Army or Navy;however, they were not able to join for there residency status. Some people who were like in the top 20 of the class, intelligence individuals, capable of doing productive things for America, well they decide NOT to persue a higher education because they were too poor to pay for tuition, if they went to school well they would work and not be able to get a job after school for not been legally in America. Some told me, that “what was the point of going to school if they were not going to be able to work”. However, some few brave souls, are going to school and paying higher tuition with the help of there parents who is probably middle class family and working hard. Now, not all but few of the legal immigrants who come to the United States are well-educated, trained. Now, competition increases with this individuals and yet how many of then want to join the Military or end up with a low-to-middle-wage job, making 20 bucks an hour? They come here to become our bosses. I bet that they end up with a high paying job, because some are better educated and trained then us.
How many visas are granted to come to America from countries such as Mexico each year? I don’t know, but to what I have heard very few. And how many people from Mexico want to come to America, a lot. I think this is what almost every country we see a lot of there people in America, because it is hard to come to America and mostly if they poor and not -educated.
California Love! Right here!
It will never happen….California politicians are as stupid as they are useless. They never act to protect citizens…..they are more interested in furthering Democrap politics, pandering to illegals and counting on the illegal vote, with or without granting them citizenship.
As for our colleges. Since my kids are looking to attend college next year we have obviously considered UC schools, including the little “red” schoolhouse down the road..UCLA.. But, I really don’t want to subject my kids to the liberal garbage they spew, don’t want them attending a school where undergraduate classes regularly have over a thousand kids per class, and don’t want them wasting 5-6 years trying to get their requirements met due to lack of classes. In the end, a high end private education will be better (less liberal garbage and smaller classes) and cheaper (they can graduate in 4 years…costing less then wasting 5-6 years in the UC system).
As for the illegal tuition…absolutely pull the free(with grants)/discounted ride plug. We Californians have voted for ending handouts to illegals in the past. But, our stupid Supreme Court gave away the bank, although that giveaway never applied to college. The decrease would present a welcome enrollment decrease to the UC system and perhaps it would also afford an increase in quality and economy for the system. Enough about the innocent children….its also time to drop free citizenship for children born to illegals in the US. Start small and eventually solve the problem.
Tyrone: You ought to visit UCLA before making such comments. You’re really misleading people. UCLA does not regularly hold undergraduate classes holding 1,000 kids. You’d need a very large auditorium to even attempt that. And your remark about spewing liberals is a cliche. UCLA is one of the best public universities in the country.
Well Gary, I won’t debate the issue. Checking out recent literature….and I have read a lot of literature on colleges recently (as well as talking to students at UCLA), the UC system, including UCLA are shown to have many, many undergraduate classes with anything from hundreds to thousands of students..yes, in very large lecture halls.
As for political slant…no cliche here, UCLA has recently received a much more liberal classification then even UC Berkley. There is no getting around the fact that it is a very liberal atmosphere…..which is not surprising given its location…..perhaps I should have called it “progressive”, which seems to be the liberal term of choice today.
That having been said, you CAN get a good education there..in 5-6 years. But consider the fact that when my brother attended some 30 years ago, almost all of his undergraduate classes were taught by grad students….don’t think it has improved. Also, still can’t figure out why they don’t have a Business School, and have to have a separate graduation for every ethnic graduating group ,major, sexual orientation, etc.,,,seems odd for “one of the best public universities in the country”. None the less, and back to the subject, if out of state citizens pay full tuition, so should illegals.
Tyrone: You said kids regularly attend classes with 1,000 students or more (which they don’t). Now you’re walking it back to the hundreds. Major universities have always had large lecture classes with hundreds of students. Harvard has them. Yale has them. Stanford has them. It is common, and it doesn’t diminish education. They’re lecture classes. Further, UCLA doesn’t have a separate graduation for every ethnic group and every sexual orientation. Really, take time to visit UCLA. Get to actually know the school. It’s not only a great university, it is one of the most beautiful campuses in the country.
The next class at UCLA with 1000 kids per class is the first class at UCLA with 1000 kids per class. Talk about hyperbole.
Question in your headline:
Repeal resident tuition for illegal immigrant students?
Common Sense Answer: Yes
Question in your poll:
Should undocumented students be allowed to pay resident fees at California’s public colleges and universities, as made possible by AB 540?
Common Sense Answer: No
Typical trick used by leftists…
I paid my way through college. non resident is non resident period.
Live here legally for a year and the prices drop.
NO RESPECT for our borders & laws = NO ACCESS to our social services or public education system!
This recession has exposed the huge financial draw that Illegal Aliens have had on state, county and city budgets. We need to put protections in place to ensure that taxpayers are the only ones who get the benefit of subsidized education. its unfair for a tax paying family to not be able to send their child to a college because of illegal aliens.
Enforce our laws, deport all illegal aliens, now. These young people should know better, but what have they learned and from whom. They say it is OK to break the law. Their parents did not respect America’s laws, why should they. They make excuses for their thieving parents and for themselves. They steal our children’s dreams and future.
Hey Gary,
Who did I tick off? Why are my comments now subject to moderation prior to posting?
PC: I haven’t added you to a moderation list.
Well someone has… Every time I post I get the tag on my comment saying “comment awaiting moderation”.
Gary ,I used to think you were a pretty decent “Reporter” but you have shown yourself to be just like Yvette Cabrera, a bleeding heart liberal, illegal alien lover, you both make excuses for the word “Illegal”, there is no excuse, try to do what these students are doing here in Mexico and find out what happens to you, lucky if you only get deported, most likely buried in the desert.
They are going to school to become productive member’s of our society, i would rather help with their college tuition that will help them get a good job that will help get them to pay taxes! As oppose to paying for their incarceration! Take your bigot head out of the sand
I guess most people are aware of the problem. Look at prop.187 we voted,and passed it as americans, why after did they say it wasn’t legal?Why was it put on the ballot?since when do they have the right to over turn the will of the people?I don’t think that american soldiers are fighting for illegals to have our privliges here at home, and our freedom.most banks give credit cards to them, as long as they put up colateral of $500.00 to get it.since when do they have a right to our system?
Leonard,
American soldiers don’t fight for you either, they fight for the country as a whole not as by individuality…they don’t give a dam about you as one person. Believe it or not best bet that there’s children of illegal aliens in the military fighting for this country. Banks do what ever they want…this country is all about money.
Big Daddy,
I am a veteran who fought from 2002-2006. I am born and raised here in California.
To comment about how us soldiers don’t give a damn about one person or another… If you are not a vet yourself don’t express how we feel. You are not in any position to give a response like that. You should be ashamed of yourself.
I along with many of my brothers in arms are having the hardest time getting into these schools while many foreign students get in with no problems. This issue hits home for us since we fought and we are still fighting to achieve our dreams.
I agree with Zac. My dad was overseas while mom raised the kiddos, hoping that her husband would make it home alive. You think that people do that because they don’t care about individuals? Military families make huge sacrifices and they don’t know you by your name, but they are fighting for all Americans, and these soldiers come from all sorts of backgrounds. They deserve our respect! Thank you, Zac, for serving your country!
Oh and one more thing those who are serving in the military as foreigners have to be proficient enough in English to serve or else they cannot join. Learn the facts.
!87 was put on the ballot by Ca. Governor Pete Wilson and his allies.It was ruled unconstitutional by a federal judge.You do know that the federal government trumps the state government,don’t you?
What the Hell. i have a 3.20 and i cant get into college due to this budget problem. WHY THE HELL WOULD we help out those people who cant even enter our country legally? do they pay taxes like my family does? have they ever served in the military like many native calf have? what the hell.
i know an 17 year ilegal who had a nightshift job, graduated with all honors you can possibley get, was in 3 varsity sports, had a bunch of honors and ap classes ,had a 4.26 gpa when he got accepted to college. he pays his medical insurance and his parents pay their taxes. he got accepted into all the UCs but he chose ucla. and his family who only earns 40 grand a year are going to pay all 25 grand of his educational fees. dont blame the budget for not being able to get into college. nobody is helping him.
karlmichael, you raise another very valid point. due to overcrowding in our state colleges & universities by allowing illegal alien students to attend (and a reduced rates, no less), we are denying access to legal, taxpaying citizens. and that should be subject to some sort of lawsuit or court action that could possibly invalidate AB 540 completely.
Even though I dont think illegals should get resident fees, this poll is horrid. Volunteer studies are terrible. An honerable writer should never publishe stuff like this even if he does say its not scientific
Matt: You have a problem with giving people a chance to express their opinion?
They are going to school too become productive member’s of our society, i would rather help with their college tuition that will in turn help them get a good job that will have them pay taxes! As oppose to paying for their incarceration! Take your bigot head out of the sand
Illegal means breaking the law. What’s the point of having immigration laws if we are not going to enforce them?
Is anybody reading between the lines? It’s another case of the classic scapegoating by clever politicians to take the attention off their incompetence in running the state and transferring it over to a harmless group of people. The one thing you can count on is increasing fees and taxes forever.
Too many illegals in the country is not scapegoating. If they weren’t here illegally and sucking our system dry, THEN I would agree with you. BUT, they are here, they are using up resources that an American can’t even get… Free lunches in school, free medical treatments, food stamps, resident tuition in our colleges. If you don’t believe they are a large part of the problem, then you are living in a bubble my friend.
Could not agree with you more!
Tomasina,
please go and learn the facts before you show more of your ignorant side.
It is a fact that in the Cal State system, the number of students that will be allowed to enroll is decreasing, and the spring semester is closed to all potential new students. In addition, class offerings have been cut nearly in half over the course of the last year…Yet we paid about 20% more in tuition. It is becoming nearly impossible for legal students to get the classes they need to earn a bachelor’s degree in four years, so there is absolutely no way we should allow illegal immigrants to fill any spots at our state colleges- period!
My case and point said perfectly Thank you David.
All you people talk like you own this land. did you forget how this land was taken from the native americas. this land was taken illegaly. what make you think you own it now. this is earth and govermnent is here to try to control all you stupid people. because the church can only control some of you.
Send them all home and make them work towards LEGAL immigration! I have friends that have had to jump through the hoops and pay the fees. Why shouldn’t the illegals have to do the same?
rob,
you speak so determined, so are you willing to work at the fields and pick fruit? or is your son or daughter willing to do that job. use your brain more before you make yourself look stupider.
Why are illegal immigrants allowed to attend any school in the US period? I was very disappointed that my child’s GATE program was cut at his school due to the budget. Yet the English as a Second Language classes are still offered? We are hurting our high achieving students to teach children how to speak the national language? Why is this not being taught at home. If illegal immigrants really want to be here they should be responsible for teaching themselves and their children how to speak the national language. Very sad to see these hand outs start at such a young age and our broke country just keeps handing out.
By the way. For us college students we are required to take at least two semesters of a foreign language which we have to pay for in order to graduate. Kind or a sickening thought since the taxes that come out of my check help pay for those ESL classes.
While there is even 1 American student that isn’t in a college, there should be no one from any other country allowed into our schools!
This makes absolutely no sense. College is an option and a good one, but certainly not the only good one.
Why should a student from Arizona have to pay out-of-state tuition while a student who is a citizen of a foreign country pay in-state tuition? This is government gone crazy. Our elected officials will continue this kind of madness until we kick them out of office.
I am a 27 year old Military veteran born and raised in California. I have a 3.9GPA in college. I work in a hospital where I see many Students going the route that I wish to pursue in Nursing. Many or which are foreign students. Nothing pisses me off more then to see how many foreign students can get into programs while I have to be a damn wait list. I have served this country with an honorable discharge, worked my butt off in school to get good grades and still I have to take a back seat to people who are here illegally?! Oh and by the way if I want to go out of state to get into school….Because I am a LEGAL resident I have to pay out of state tuition fees…
Thank you for your service
i am forever grateful for your service as well. but let me just respectfully, remind you that AB540 works only in California. its not ilke they can go to north carolina and get resident tuition there or anywhere else in the Us. and also please dont confuse foreign students with undocumented students because there is a huge difference. thank you once again and may your rewards become tenfold for your service.
there is lots of money but corp. america controls most of it. and they control the gov. you pays for the campaning
I am a student who moved here from Texas and waited two years to go to school here. I am also a single mom that works while attending school and now I have to pay more for my classes. I think that gives me room to say give your citizens a break 1st. It’s hard enough right now to survive and the fact is that we can’t afford to support anyone illegal, much less our own citizens. Times are tough…..
Welcome to California. now, see how backwards we are here? and people think Texas is weird!
Simple: this “courtesy” is not offered to Americans if we chose to study in Mexico. And in this awful economic period in our history, it is absurd to charge American citizens who are from say Nevada full price but give this discount to illegal immigrant. I’m a “legal” immigrant who is now a citizen…. there is a difference and immigration should be done right.
“Illegal Alien” must be translated into “Undocumented Alien”.
We all understand that people coming into our country can harm our country, so we should all understand that our government know who or whom is in our country for whatever purpose.
Is this too difficult to comprehend?
If there were consequences for coming to this country illegally, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Instead, there are rewards. And AB540 is just one more of the many that illegals enjoy.
What is the difference between out taxes providing the difference between resident tuition and that actually expended for illegal immigrants and the taxes that we pay to get them through k-12? If we allow illegal immigrants into our K-12 system, why not college too?
Sorry but illegal residents should not be given in state tuition. Also why are they in college anyway? Once they graduate they can’t work in the US unless they commit identity theft and use somebody’s social security number. So aren’t we compounding the problem by giving them a cheaper education?
And UCLA - by giving these students in-state tuition the taxpayers have to make up the difference so yes they are getting a form of financial aid.
and what difference is that? there is a set price to attend college. if they pay it, then they pay it, there is no “difference”. if a legal in state CA student doesn’t qualify for financial aid and he has to pay everything are you paying the “difference”? because that’s exactly what an AB 540 student is doing, paying the same as someoen who deosnt qualify for financail aid whatsoever.
if you average out the tuition paid per student - in-state and out-of-state, the average tuition brought in per student is higher than the in-state tuition. the total is the amount of money (”revenue”) that a campus brings in. that is the money they need to function as a university, aside from money received from the state (”taxpayers”).
when you give anyone who is not a legal resident “in-state” tuition, as with any California legal resident you are giving them a DEAL, a lower rate. most Californians get this DEAL because a) they are U.S. citizens and b) they and their parents pay taxes to the IRS and the state, which in turn goes to the U.C. system. it’s unfair to everyone to hand it out to people who happened to meander into California and have some kids that graduated h.s.
get it through your head man.
would we or our children be afforeded the same considerations (as non-citizens) in any foreign country?
Yeehaw? Monroe are you sure you are from California? That sounds more like you are from Tennessee. Anyway we have given these lawbreakers (aka illegal immigrants) more free passes than they deserve. American citizens are being bumped out so that law breakers can take away the services intended for US Citizens. Sadly though, we here in California keep electing these spinless politicans who keep catering to them. It’s time we say enogh is enough and start holding them accountable for their actions.
It’s amazing how the anti-immigrant loonies keep playing the “illegal alien” card, when the US was founded on the illegal invasion of the American continent by Europeans and the slaughter of most of the Native inhabitants. Mexicans are mostly an Native American population, whose ancestors have been in this continent for thousands of years.
After independence, the formerly Spanish territories were under Mexican control. Mexico forbid Anglo immigration. Gringos consistently broke Mexican law when they illegally invaded California and the Southwest.
In Texas, the Mexican government had given permission for some whites to emigrate. But thousands more Anglo immigrants, or criminals, arrived illegally.
Prior to 1823, there were less than three thousand white people in Texas. At that time, the Mexican government had given Stephen Austin permission to live there along with a few hundred other gringos, with the condition that they would become Mexican citizens, they would speak Spanish, and they would pledge allegiance to the Mexican government. But white colonists began to enter the territory illegally and brought their slaves with them. Within a decade, whites outnumbered the Mexican inhabitants. Whites were interested in the rich agricultural lands of the Texan territory. These were the illegal aliens of their day, see Patricia Nelson Limerick, The Legacy of Conquest: The Unbroken Past of the American West. By 1830, whites outnumbered Mexicans 25,000 to 4,000.
Houston Chronicle’s Rick Casey write: “Some illegals came to escape debts or domestic obligations. Some were simply adventurers.
Some were fugitives from justice, “sporting brands on their faces marking them as miscreants.” (Think gang tattoos, only not voluntary.)
Some of these, not surprisingly, continued their criminal careers in Texas. Colonists who caught them at it considered the Mexican prohibition of the death penalty to be inconvenient and carried out executions.
These immigrants not only entered illegally or violated the terms of their legal entry, but rather than keep their heads down and try to fit in, they lived in active defiance of the law.
So much so that the Mexican government in 1830 passed a law barring all new American immigrants from entering Texas.”
According to Mexican Lieutenant Jose Maria Sanchez, the foreign intruders “have taken possession of practically all the eastern part of Texas, in most cases without the permission of the authorities. They immigrate constantly, finding no one to prevent them, and take possession of the sitio (location) that best suits them without either asking leave or going through any formality other than that of building their homes.”
The Anglo invasion of Mexican territory was not confined to Texas. They arrived in droves and illegally occupied great parts of the Southwest and California.
California Governor Pio Pico warned of how “we find ourselves threatened by hordes of Yankee immigrants who have already begun to flock into our country and whose progress we cannot arrest.”
By the late 1800s, Anglos had acquired four fifths of the Mexican land. See A History of Multicultural America, by Ronald Takaki. Six years after Texas independence, 1.3 million acres had been seized by 13 anglos. David Montejano, Anglos and Mexicans in the Making of Texas.
During the 1800s, during one of the greatest migrations, millions of Europeans arrived illegally to the US. For this reason, in 1891, Congress passed a law stating that those who had entered the country illegally could be expelled within one year. See Reports of the Immigration Commission (61 Cong., 3 Sess., Senate Doc. No. 758.) However, these aliens simply got off the boats, declared themselves to be American, and blended with the larger society.So many Italians came here illegally that they were known by the derogatory name, “W*OP”, without papers.
Europeans made up the majority of illegal aliens who received amnesty under the 1929 Registry Act, which allowed “honest law-abiding alien[s] who may be in the country under some merely technical irregularity” to register as permanent residents for a fee of $20 if they could prove they had lived in the U.S. since 1921 and were of “good moral character.” During the following year up to 1969, millions illegal Europeans legalized their status through the Registry Act which allowed them to leave the U.S. voluntarily and re-enter legally with a visa (a “touch-back” program)—or through discretionary rules that allowed immigration officials to suspend deportations in “meritorious” cases.
This is what one would expect for the government we lovingly now refer to as SOB’s… For those of you with no English reading and thinking ability, that is South Of the Border!!! Please go back and pay your lower prices also subsidized by the US government!!!
Here’s some simple deductive reasoning to show you all why all the anti-illegal immigrant ranting is nothing more than racism: The anti-people love to point out the cost of illegal immigration, and small benefits like this one in their attempts to demonize these poor people. What the anti-peeps never mention, or think about, is the immense amount of money they, and all of us, save by having illegal labor in America. Illegal labor is involved in construction, textiles, all aspects of food production, building maintenance, groundskeeping, etc. Things are tight right now. I doubt that very many people could afford the price hike for the essentials of life that would result were there no illegal labor. The majority of Americans love their cheap products. They have no desire to pay $20 for a head of lettuce, or $80 for a white cotton T-shirt, not to mention the effect on the already strained housing market. The truth is that the vast majority of Americans are completely addicted to the lifestyle that illegal labor makes possible. America has never existed without a racial underclass to do the majority of the backbreaking labor. It is no different today. Illegal Immigrants do the most thankless, dangerous and strenuous jobs in our society…the jobs that keep this ship sailing. Yet, the anti people want to persecute these people every chance they get. The way the reality works out is that the immigrants just have a harder time here. They have to be careful to stay under the radar. This constant tension keeps them in the exact same position that black South Africans were in during aparthied. Think about it. The anti people could very easily discover which products they use daily are produced by illegal labor, but they don’t. If they’re so interested in legality, why don’t they? Think about it.
Hey Gary, I read the article, was reading the posts, requirements of the law, etc., above. First off, let me say that I am for charging illegals out of state tuition. I guess I agree with the majority, huh?
But what about not tolerating racially insensitive remarks? I see more than a handful of negative if not offensive remarks about Mexicans above. Is it that remarks about Mexicans are ethnically insensitive, as opposed to racially insensitive so they’re ok? I find the many negative references to Mexicans really hateful and unnecessary. Why detract from a reasonable position by posting invective directed at people of a particular nationality? Do these remarks add anything constructive to the discussion?
I say charge illegals (regardless of country of origin) out of state rates because that makes sense. I’m not saying don’t ban them from attending. If they can afford out of state tuition, great. It might create an additional hardship for them, but it’s not one that isn’t imposed on U.S. citizens and legal, that’s right, I said legal, residents. Sounds fair.
Oops meant to say at the end “U.S. Citizens and legal, that’s right, I said legal, residents from other states.”
Just to let you know, the majority of illegal immigrants, 95%, apply for a special number in order to do their taxes and in hope that it will be taken in consideration when the opportunity comes to fix their status. from about the 95%, 85 % actually do there taxes and pay there fair share to uncle sam. many dont end up paying because they dont make enough and yes they have lots of dependants but they still do their taxes. Now before anyone starts yelling at me please do your research first and stop blaming a small group of people for the big problems this country has. everyone had a part in this somehow and there are lots more Americans then there are illegals. The majority dont even go to a doctor until its mostly too late to do anything and they have little time left. the countries economy needs to be fixed but dont blame it on a small percentage of the US population. im sure the majority in more ways then one has lied in there taxes, made crazy claims to get money. whats happening to the AMerican dream? freedom for all and the right to happiness?
Make Illegal citizens pay the same as out-of-state students. If that rate is too high, they can go somewhere else. Let them shop around.
I remember NY state tuition was so high for residents, that students would would pay out-of-state tuition elsewhere andstill pay less $$$.
I am know for a fact that I grew up with kinds in the California k-12 system whos parents were not leagal citizens of the US. So I suppose the kids that I grew up with were not legal citizens of the US either. However, the parents and kids worked California jobs and paid California taxes. In my book that makes them California citizens in every way but legally. Under those circumstance, they should be allowed to pay in state tuition. Now kids from another state, or fresh from another country is entirely different matter all together….
I like this train of thought!!!!! Let’s give the illegals another break over the Legit US born citizens of this once thriving country. It is this kind of action that has for the most part sent our jobs over the borders, allows illegals to send their “UnTAXed” wagesback over the border(s), low income housing and other benifits originally designed to assist US Americans while they were down on their luck - now supports the growing population of illegals and their “meal ticket kids” we have allowed to be born in this country. So to you government and heads of our “Public” & “Private” education systems just keep on giving the US Americans the shaft and keep helping those that will never give back to this country or the systems that presented them with the benifits that educated and supported them….
J says: Where do you come-up statisitics? LA Unified is in shambles due to illegal immigration.
Please call them what they are, and they are very proud to be
ILLEGAL ALIENS!!! they are not undocumented students, Mexico has
a bunch of Universities, let them go and fight for they’re rights over
there, since they, and they’re law breakers parents have they’re
allegiance to corrupted Mexico!!!
Maria
I’m pretty sure the Irish and Chinese illegals don’t give their allegiance to corrupted Mexico.
Living in a border state we all know that we have a sever problem with illegal imagration. I strongly feel that we should not reward people in any fashion when they are not arriving in this country leagally. I don’t really care which country they come from or what ethnic bacground that they share. If you enter this country and are not a legal citizen or have proper documentation you should not benefit from our State Funded programs weather it’s public education, grants, legal aid, health care etc…. I work extremely hard as a single parent. I wanted to go to school and needed to get financial aid and do you know what they told me, “We are sorry you make too much money and you do not qualify”. This is such a joke; I thought to myself since I pay taxes, I work hard, I pay my bills, and barely have enough money to make ends meet. I don’t have any real savings and I am not rich by any means. I am just a hard working woman who has had the same job for nearly eight years and I can not get any public aid to complete my education. The bottom line is we continue to pay for illegal immagrants and an increasing cost and there is not enough to go around for real Americans. Yes, we need to repeal AB 540 and not reward any one who is not a legal citizen.
Precious college admission slots are severly limited. Those must be reserved for citizens and legal residents. No amount of money or “bribes” should be taken as that is corrupt to the core. No slots for illegals, paying or not. That is not the message a country based on the rule of law should transmit.
Besides, once an illegal graduates, they still can’t get legal work here so why bother? Is this an international welfare program for foreign students? Apparently so.
What a messed up state!
With the increasing costs and diminishing amount of financial aid and number of college seats, college seats in California and elsewhere should be reserved for American kids and legal immigrants — those who have played by the rules. This is a matter of fundamental fairness.
And if we keep giving precious colleges seat and benefits like in-state tuition to illegal imigrants, this will only encourage more illegal immigration.
Finally, the countries from whence these illegal immigrant students came from desperately need them to return to make their countries better.
Pass the Dream Act. In the past 20 years we have witnessed dramatic increases in the percentage of latinos among active duty enlisted personnel. If we allow undocumented youth who have met all the requirements (Entered the country as underage, Good Academic standing in U.S. school, clean records, recommendations etc.) to benefit from the Dream Act we will benefit in turn. Many Latinos are attracted to the armed forces and will willingly join if given the chance. My brother is an USMC officer (went the OCS route and graduated from military university) and he is witness to the fact that our forces are depleted and soldiers are on their fourth tour and about to break. We need to increase our numbers pronto.
“We need to increase our numbers pronto”
you sure are clouding the issue. we already have way too many college students for available seats on California campuses, Jillian. that’s what matters.
Add it up:
Resident: $8,266
Non-resident: $30,935
Amount we taxpayers subsidize an illegal alien per year: $22,669
Amount we taxpayers subsidize an illegal alien for a four year degree: $90,676
We could send the entire family to Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México and pay for their living expenses for all four years for half that amount.
Illegals should not be given (any) benefits.
Whether brought to the US by their parents or not, they are still illegal and should not be supported by the taxpayers.
The state of North Carolina recently stopped giving illegal aliens resident fees. It’s interesting that if I was in the military and was transferred to California I would not be eligible for the same rights as illegal aliens.
I hear about taxpayers and all this. Illegal Immigrants who work and get a check also pay state and federal taxes. If you think about how many of this illegal immigrants have a children in college (it would mostlikely be 1 of every 7 families has a children in college) or a universitie it is unfair for undocummented people who live in the state of california and pay state taxes not to be able to pay in state tuition. Also many of this students are obligated to work to pay for college which means that they get a check and pay state and federal taxes. The reason why there is out of state tuition is because a family from New York doesn’t pay taxes to the state of California where the undocumented student’s family that lives is California PAYS CALIFORNIA TAXES!!! Many of you have said IS ABOUT MONEY, the goverment runs the money so don’t try to look for scape goats.
In California we have a budget crises and we don’t even know how much this bill costs the tax payers. How many other bills do we not know how much it costs? I thought we had intelligent people writting these bills.
I say repeal AB 540! These undocumented students should be treated as “foreign” students and should pay full price. They are NOT US citizens, therefore they are foreigners, and they have the birth certificates to prove it too!
I say that the state should pass a new law, stating in order to receive in-state funds, you should be a US citizen AND a state resident.
Higher studies IS NOT A RIGHT. It is like driving a car; it is a PRIVILEGE.
The blame is on their parents; therefore their parents should do the RIGHT THING and bring them back to their home country and support their children achieve their dreams of a college degree there. The fact that they are not doing this suggests they are OK with leeching off another country’s system. Where is the pride? the dignity?
If they really loved their children, they would do the right thing by them. Watching your children live in hiding, not being able to drive and enjoy simple things that youth is suppose to bring, not being able to get a job to buy what they want is unconscienable and certainly does not show real love. What happened to “It doesn’t matter where we are as long as we are all together?” Can’t they make that work for them in their own home countries?
The Golden State?
No more.
bruinbill says:
“If you want to create more room for citizens students, you can always eliminate admission of all foreign students. Proof of residency and birth citizenship would be required for admission. But that’s not the goal of those who attack students who were brought here illegally. It is an entirely race-based position.
Racism lives.”
Hey bruinbill, what race is illegal alien? By the way, Mexico’s laws against illegal immigration are a lot more strict than ours are. I guess this means, according to you, that Mexico’s laws must be race-based. Yes, racism lives in Mexico, a country whose population is 98% Latino.
I think we need to look at illegal immigrants in the same way we do legal foreign exchange students. They should not be given a better price for education compared to other students from outside the US. Foreign exchange students already have to deal with a lot of regulation from their Country and the US when they apply to a US school and I would like to see illegal immigrants be required to apply to the same standards others are asked to perform.
Nothing in AB540 allows for “undocumented” persons to enroll in California’s colleges and universities.
There is one major certain misunderstanding. Most states have a nonresident fee for out of state CITIZENS, which is commonly referred to as a resident. But “Residency” is not “Citizenship” No state identifies any policy for allowing either nonresident or resident of NonCitizens (undocumented). They are not admitted period without Special Educational Visa applications under international reciprocity. The AB540 was not established for interpretation of any Visa issue.
Thus, Under federal and state law, undocumented students, regardless of their academic achievement or financial need, are not eligible for federal or state financial aid nor are they eligible to receive campus-based aid or subsidized student loans. Meaning noncitizens.
B540 SUMMARY : Allows specified nonresidents to meet state residency requirements for the purposes of establishing tuition levels at the California State University (CSU) and California Community Colleges (CCC). Specifically, this bill would:
1)Permit a nonresident to pay resident tuition at CSU or CCC provided that they meet all of the following requirements:
a) Attended high school in California for three or more years;
b) Graduated from a California high school; and,
c) Continues his or her education at a California
institution of higher education within one year of high school graduation or on or before January 1, 2002.
2)Request the Regents of the University of California (UC) to also exempt persons meeting the above criteria from paying non-resident tuition.
3)Allow persons meeting the above criteria to be deemed to meet residency requirements with respect to eligibility for California student aid programs.
The California Nonresident Tuition Exemption Request
For Eligible California High School Graduates requires that the applicant declare:
- I am a nonimmigrant alien as defined by federal law. [Nonimmigrant aliens have been admitted to the United
States temporarily and include, but are not limited to, foreign students (persons holding F visas) and exchange
visitors (persons holding J visas).]
OR
- I am NOT a nonimmigrant alien. [U.S. citizens, permanent residents, or aliens without lawful immigration status, among others, should check this box.]
True Immigration Reform must include identification verifications, not only for education, but medical as well.
All citizens should demand their representatives create and vote for secure methods to eliminate gray areas of nonenforcement.
You’re essentially repeating the top of the story.
OK - I’m confused. Why are we letting illegals go to school here at all? With all the recent budget cuts in schools, I can’t believe that this is being allowed to continue. Legal citizens should have every right to attend school and should not be shut out of classes because an illegal alien is taking a spot. Why is this even a debate? If person is here illegally, they should have NO rights to any government services, including education, period. Let’s move on.
Gary:
This is an important topic given the health of our current state economy and the fact that education is the most expensive line item. I think AB 540 is simply one piece of a bigger puzzle being missed by the media and the public. What is happening at least at many prestigious UC campuses is this; many students are coming from abroad, largely from Asian countries, going to high school for a few years in the state or entering a community college, and are gaining access at resident fees for the UC system. Most of this is happening under the radar. It would be one thing if this was only a handful of students. As you mentioned, in terms of undocumented students the number may be small. The perception for the public seems to be that many immigrants from Latin American countries are somehow exploiting the system. The data simply refutes this claim:
UCLA
http://www.aim.ucla.edu/admissions/admissionsz.asp
UC Berkeley
http://opa.berkeley.edu/institutionaldata/campusenroll.htm
UC Irvine
http://web.oir.uci.edu/portrait/2008-uc-irvine-profile.pdf
The largest ethnic group by far is Asian. Each of these top UC campuses has Asian representation of 50 percent and above (some are approaching 70 percent if we factored in those who simply choose not to disclose). Those categorized as Hispanics make up roughly 10 percent and many of those were born in the country just like many of the Asian students. However, there is a major pipeline from Asian countries and this loophole is largely known in many circles. It is a systematic strategy. Students will come here and go to a California high school for the required 3 year time, and then gain access to the UC system at resident fee levels. Many times they will stay with family members. I encourage any OC Register reporter to explore local Southern California UC campuses and they will be stunned. This is a story that is important because it goes against the spirit of the law. It is also important because it is costing the state millions of dollars and the public is largely oblivious to this going on.
The initial goal and spirit of these programs were to help underrepresented students from lower socio-economic families to attend a good college based on their merits. Yet this is only happening at the fringe. If you look at the demographics of the UC campuses above they are not meeting this goal. The loophole is largely being exploited and many times, these UC campuses are now seeing many students who have a hard time even commanding the English language. Some of these students will score 800 on their language SAT II score yet have a difficult time passing the English college entrance writing exam. If you need proof of this, just call up any academic testing center at any of the campuses above. Now that the UC campuses are turning away many California residents, we have to ask some very hard questions and dig deeper into the data. The fact that there is no hard data on AB 540 students at UC campuses should not preclude the media from going behind the curtain to see what is clearly a pipeline and is actually happening.
As the UC cuts enrollment, raises fees, and finds ways to stay solvent, is it fair to penalize students that have no access to this loophole? Another exploit that is occurring is through the community college system. Students will go to the community college system for 2 years and then transfer into the UC system. In fact, the UC needs to meet quotas with transfer students so the competition isn�t as fierce through the transfer mechanism. What does the data show again? A large community of Asian students are using the community college system as another back door for cheap public education at the UC campuses.
Now most middle class taxpaying Californians struggling with foreclosures, job cuts, stagnant wages, realize that the only way to succeed in a competitive environment is through education. The above isn�t to deny any student access to the system. In fact, many UC campuses will seek to increase their foreign student enrollment. There is nothing wrong with this. Foreign students pay a much higher tuition than residents. But so should those students that come to the state and exploit those loopholes. Someone from Oregon wanting to come to a UC school would need to pay non-resident fees yet someone who understands the system can come here, go to high school for 3 years, and get resident fees? And in this situation, we aren�t talking about a handful of students, we are talking about hundreds or thousands if someone would actually go to these campuses and do some investigative journalism.
Through admissions, students are also given points for selecting a first generation status. However, many of these students coming from these countries have parents with college degrees yet how can the UC verify? Also, the fact that they have access to a good public high school and a home does not make them disadvantage. In fact, they have enough resources to plan this out and make the flight over to the state.
Hopefully the OC Register will look into this because we are talking about millions of dollars and students being denied access to the UC system because hundreds have developed a pipeline to enter the system.
L.A.: You’re overlooking something: Most of these students are Asian-American. They were born here. The UC system does have international students, including some from Asian countries. Just like Asian countries have some American students. You’re trying to advance a stereotype. I ain’t buying it.
Gary,
You are absolutely right about those born in the state. And that is not the intent of the above. Take UC Irvine for example in the OC. We are talking about a campus with over 21,000 undergraduates. Your hunch is only that, a hunch. Here is data in terms of state residency status for UC Irvine for example:
http://www.oir.uci.edu/enr/IIA08-enr-by-ca-residency-fall05-fall08.pdf
Now say the campus has even a tiny percentage of the students who are coming to California high schools for 3 years and then going to the UC under non-resident status. You know what the price difference is? $20,000 per year. Even if only a 100 students went through this mechanism, we are talking about $2,000,000. That is a substantial loophole. Give the testing centers of UCLA, UC Berkeley, and UC Irvine a call. Now why would a California resident need to take an academic English entrance exam if they already went through high school here? Not a writing placement, academic English. If the number is tiny, then they will tell you only a few people will take the exam. I think you will find the answer to be otherwise.
As a few have noted here, it isn’t that you want to give preferential treatment or keep someone out. But they should be paying the same amount as the 952 non-residents out of the 21,000 and more undergraduates. And certainly Americans study abroad just like they study here. But that isn’t the argument and I doubt many Americans are confronted with the difference between $10,000 or $30,000 fees in other countries. The crux of the issue revolves around how many students come from another country for 3 years specifically to get into the UC system at subsidized fees. Since we don’t have detailed data on this, we can only look at other sources. Yet any person will be able to see what is going on.
And the irony, is that someone for example that goes through the community college system to gain access to the UC system may block out a California high school student. So to your argument, many Asian students born in the state may be blocked out by another Asian student who went through the community college path and might only have a few years in the state. Is this in the spirit of the program? The purpose was to increase diversity with the community college system and you will find, at least at the top UC’s that this goal is not being met.
All illegal aliens should be deported. No chances, just deported. Forget about helping them get an education. It is against the law to give them jobs. Those who do should go to jail. If they had any honor or a tiny bit of knowing the difference between right and wrong. They would take the education their parents stole for them and go back to the nations they were smuggled out of. They could take that education and do something there. Illegal alien’s dream is our children’s NIGHTMARE!!!
It doesn’t matter how the illegal aliens got here, if they are here illegally then they should receive no consideration. Why punish American taxpayers for the sins of the illegal aliens parents? They have schools in their own countries, go home and attend those, we do NOT owe them an education.
Federal law prohibits granting illegal aliens in-state tuition unless legal residents of other states are also given this benefit REGARDLESS OF RESIDENCY.
There is currently a case in the California State Supreme Court addressing just this issue. Should the State lose, it faces the real possibility of having to compensate those students it charged out-of-state rates while offering in-state rates to illegal aliens.
Litigation is currently pending before the California Supreme Court that will nullify AB 540 and force the state to refund the hundreds of millions of dollars in non-resident tuition premiums illegally extracted from US citizen students enrolled at California public universities and colleges who are not state residents.
A 1996 federal law, 8 USC 1623, required states to offer resident tuition rates to ALL US citizens admitted IF it was offered to ANY illegal alien.
A state appellate court ruled in 2008 that the litigation should proceed to trial on claims that AB 540 violated the Supremacy Clause of the US Constitution, as well as the right to equal protection of the US student plaintiffs. The Supreme Court is now considering whether AB 540 also violated the privileges and immunities clause of the 14th Amendment, in particular the privilege of a US citizen to never be treated worse under than an illegal alien.
More than 80,000 US citizens students will be entitled to tuition refunds worth, in some cases, $60,000 or more, for violation of their constitutional rights, if the litigation is successful.
The case is called Robert Martinez et al v. Board of Regents of the University of California et al. For more information contact IRLI at http://www.irli.org.
Illegal aliens should be deported! PERIOD.
if you’re not a legal resident or citizen in the U.S., how can you be determined to be a resident of California? clearly one trumps the other.
besides, we can’t even remotely afford to subsidize these students over the other, legal, taxpaying citizens of this state. bottom line. so I say, get in line to be a citizen and then come back later to get your degree. there is no civil inalienable right to a free or cheap higher education, so we should stop pretending there is.
I’d like to go to Canada or Mexico, tell them I have no documentation but wish to attend their schools for what all their citizens pay, while receiving lot of other unwarranted benefits like food stamps, free medical, and welfare money. in that regard, AB540 is a joke.
Dear bruinbill,
You really need to understand that the concept of racism, which you see as the crux of the tuition argument, is a concept inculcated by not only “progressives,” but mega corporations as well.
One side sees illegals as Undocumented Democrats and future reconquistas, the other sees a never ending cheap labor supply
and bodies that will eat their Flamin’ Hot Cheetos and drink
sugary sodas and buy diapers for their voluminous offspring.
Neither side can tell the truth about their nefarious goals, but they do need the support of seemingly thoughtful college students and others whose minds are “constructively malleable.”
So, the question for the mega corporations is, “How can we get “progressives” to support The Invasion of the U.S., and the resulting wage slavery it creates ?
It’s simple, really. They just get the unwary to believe that opposing The Invasion and slavery is racism.
And since They know that “progressives” love to feel good about themselves and love to look good to other “progressives” They simply
get them to believe whatever they wish, using the Pavlovian stimulus and response training which may be summed up as an exersize in racism/not racism.
So it is that “progressives” actually forward the goals of McDonalds,
J & J, etc.
You offer “yes” “no” and “I’m not sure…” but where is the button for “HELL NO…They’re ILLEGAL, Stupid!” Remember, we’re not talking about “anchor babies” or “..the children [sic] of undocumented [sic] immigrants [sic}…” we’re talking about ADULTS who know darn well they’re breaking the law by being here. If they want a US education, let them apply for a student visa and pay full price. If the Bleeding Heart Crowd” thinks they deserve a break, let THEM pay for it…not the hard-pressed taxpayer already buckling under one of the harshed tax burdens in the Nation. Try asking Mexico, Guatamala, El Salvador, or any other nation if they’ll educate Americans at their expense..don’t be shocked when they fail to extend a helping hand no matter how sad your Sob Story is!
Its funny how many of you treat this subject as if it were only about money as if by deciding this you would all just recieve money back and that would be the end of it, many of you dont understad the morality of the subject because all of you who dont care, you all drive big fancy cars attend fancy schools and have fancy homes(when i mean fancy i dont mean expensive cars or houses or schools i mean decent ones). many illgeal immigrants or should i say we dont have those things we may have an ipod or some good shoes or clothes but those only range under 200 dollars for a decent one, yet many of you if you were to lose one of those objects you would be no biggy i can just buy another 1 yet we have to work hard for it or forget about it because we dont have the financial means to aquire one. Many of you would have dissent towards my kind, you would consider me inferior, haha if we were to be in the same room you probably wouldnt look my way maybe its not about rascism but then again many of you know it is, i am not suprise though because i have studied the history of this great and powerful nation along with its dirty roots. Many of you dont understand the conflicts that other people who are less fortunate have to go through but then again many of you dont have hearts.
I was at the hearing a few years ago when Senator McClintok tried to put into law a bill that would repeal AB540. Year after year he would try and year after year. The stack was stacked against him. The illegal alien advocates (Maldaf, Lulac, La Raza, the unions) would be there and they would bring buses of illegal aliens with the same Teal Tshirts to stand up when the Chairman of the committee would ask who was for the bill, and who was against. Illegal alien students would testify and start to cry and of course the elected officials would start commenting that these poor students needed to be helped. What a load of crap. This state is run by Democrats with the help of the Republicans who help illegal alien get there way.
Please - send your best Elected Politician debater to me. Let’s have them debate with me for 3 hours (if they have the balls!) in a public venue.
LET’S DEBATE ON THE SUBJECT: Is illegal immigration good for America today?
Your chosen politician can take the microphone for 5 minutes and I will shut up. Then they can sit down and let me speak for 5 minutes and they can shut up. After 3 hours of this I can assure you the “REAL TRUTH” will be revealed. And, the B.S. can quit flowing.
NOW - put up or shut up. And, quit the name calling & accusations if you can’t back it up. 99% of the Patriot people or Tea Party People are NOT racistists. We are just people that believe our laws, rules & common sense should prevail over the minority opinion which would profit over “Free” benefits such as Education, housing, medical, judicial services ETC.
Its time to re-examine instant citizenship (Anchor babies) which hasn’t been illuminated enough, to growing concern of the American public. For decades now pregnant women have arrived on tourist’s visas, through the fence and even at ports of call. Very aware of our mis-interpreted law governing “birthright citizenship”, that attributes full rights to the Mother of an illegal immigrant. How can Americans benefit from this Health care reform package, when we must subsidize millions of households and not just the original interloper? Outlined in the spring issue of the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons is an article that will stun a prudent person. An illegal alien entered the states in 1997 to work as a fruit picker, bringing with him his wife and three children; all illegal aliens.
The lady gave birth to a fourth child, and with that birth the family had an “anchor baby”—an American citizen by birth, who provided the entire family with a free pass to remain in the United States permanently and collect government, subsides. Unfortunately the baby was born prematurely, spent three months in the neonatal incubator, and cost the San Joaquin Hospital more than $300,000. Meanwhile, the oldest daughter married an illegal alien and gave birth to her own anchor baby, and then Cristobal’s wife gave birth to yet another baby. ALL PAID FOR BY—YOU!
This is just one taxpayer example of the ‘Rule of law’ that has cost taxpayers billions of dollars. A nurse admitted last weekend, according to Review-Journal reported that cash-strapped UMC hospital in Nevada is providing more than $20 million a year in emergency dialysis care for uninsured, illegal immigrants. Is American society insane when poverty stricken Americans are turned away, go bankrupt and sometimes die? TAXPAYERS ARE TAXED FOR THIS, BUT NOT FOR OUR OWN PEOPLE? We must insist that a Birthright Citizenship lawsuit be filed with the federal court and its original intent revisited? That E-Verify should be fully funded and a highly skilled MIT team, building on the original Immigration enforcement database to a highest level of security that cannot be compromised by the use of fraudulent documents.
The PC oriented application must be installed permanently on every business computer across this country? ICE should have the manpower to audit every workplace, with the power to arrest and detain employers who snub immigration laws? Repeat offenders should be dealt with harshly, including prison and confiscation of business assets. There should be no mitigating excuses because illegal immigrants are—STEALING JOBS– on any rung of the employment ladder? These employers for years have been an intended magnet for destitute labor in many cases, but have left the burden of paying for schooling for the children, health care and a veiled miscellaneous core of government handouts to US taxpayers. THIS IS NOT ABOUT RACISM, BUT AN ULTIMATE FINANCIAL MATTER OF SURVIVAL FOR US ALL!
Insist your politicians guarantee E-Verify is fully funded and is not scuttled by Sen. Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, Janet Napolitano or any other high ranking Democrats. The Washington switchboard has their number at 202-224-3121. Research these laws, true facts and incredulous stats at NUMBERSUSA & JUDICIAL WATCH
We have/had THE BEST schools in the world. Why in the world are we giving them away. California cannot afford to pay the tab for the entire world.
We charge Arizona students “out of state” rates. We charge International students, the same rate as us tax paying schmucks.
The kicker? My kids couldn’t get into ONE UC system. They were innudated with “international students.”
Gee, wonder how many countries would let me ship my kids over to their top universities at the same rate as their countrymen.
Answer: ZERO
Editor’s Note: OCtimes comment deleted for being off-topic. The topic is AB 540. This isn’t a platform for snarky remarks about “international” students. As noted earlier, the term international students generally refers to students who come to U.S. colleges and universities legally, from places like Asia, Europe and Indiea.
You race baiters.
Do the exemptions equally apply to Canadians?
Hey the time on this comment section is wrong…says 8:58 p.m. was posted at 9:59 p.m.
I say if you weren’t born in CA then you shouldn’t be considered a “natural born citizen of California” and thus should never be given in-state tuition, a driver’s license, or any state services whatsoever. Go back to your own state, foreigners! This my state! Who’s with me? Yeehaw!
Editor’s note: Remark by Reese deleted for racial stereotyping.
Gary, you are the one with the problem. I just told the truth. Why don’t you tell me why Mexico is a mess and Canada is doing fine.