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Why does Chapman cost more than Yale, Caltech?
September 8th, 2009, 5:00 am · 101 Comments · posted by Gary Robbins, science writer-editor
Chapman students gather on lawn outside Memorial Hall.
As we reported earlier, Chapman University in Orange fared well in the recent US News college rankings, being named 9th best in the western United States among schools known as Master’s universities, or those that “offer a full range of undergrad programs and some master’s programs but few doctoral programs.”
The ranking — the highest so far for Chapman — reflected the university’s rise in economics and the addition of a physics and computational science program, among other things. But the US News report also raised a few questions, including this: Why does the small, mostly regional university that does comparatively little research charge tuition and fees that exceed or rival those of some of the most prestigious– and most selective – schools in the U.S.?
The chart below illustrates what I’m talking about. (I added highly-respected Santa Clara University to the list because it’s similar, in many ways, to Chapman.)
We sought an explanation from Chapman executives and were told, by email: ” Where other schools – especially the long-established ones like Harvard – have huge endowments, Chapman does not. Chapman was founded in 1861, but we’ve really only been working on our endowment since 1991 or so. Harvard has been working on theirs since 1636 or so. They have a good 350+-year lead – which also means 350 more years of alumni giving. Even after they lost a sizeable number of billions during the current economic crunch, Harvard’s endowment still stands at about $24 billion. Chapman’s is currently $234 million.
“An endowment creates a predictable revenue stream that a university can use for many things: to pay for faculty salaries, to recruit the best and the brightest faculty, create student scholarships and fund academic programs. Right now, although Chapman’s endowment doubled in size between 2001 and 2008, it is still low compared to other private universities whose educational programs we believe we rival. Chapman funds its operations, scholarships and programs primarily through tuition and fund-raising.
“And of course, being a private institution, while Chapman receives state and federal funds in support of a portion of need-based student financial aid, as well as research grants, the university receives nothing like the amount of taxpayer support that subsidizes the real cost of education at the state schools.
Harvard Yard, Cambridge. Image courtesy of Harvard
“Harvard and CalTech are excellent, but they are not the right schools for everyone. At those schools, you might not get to study directly with a Nobel winner, Wolf Prize winner or Oscar winner, as you can at Chapman. In fact, at those schools you might not even see your top professors more than once a week – you may have grad assistants teaching many of your classes. At Chapman, you learn from the professor you paid to learn from.”
I also posed a second question: “Why would a student who gets admitted to Yale and Chapman, and who receives an approximately equal financial package by both institutions, choose Chapman over Yale?”
I received a response from Daniele Struppa, Chapman’s chancellor. He offered up an example as a reply, using Notre Dame instead of Yale.
“We have a student who recently got admitted (WITH A FULL SCHOLARSHIP) to the doctoral program in math at Notre Dame (they have one of the finest depts. in the country). She decided to forego that offer, in order to get her MS with (Nobel laureate) Vernon (Smith) and his team this year, in their new program in Economic Systems Design. She would have done the same if Yale or Harvard had offered her the position on their graduate program. Her choice is strictly based on the specific knowledge she has of our faculty and our programs. It does not hurt the fact that a couple of months ago she participated in a competition run by the Mathematical Association of America, and received an award for the paper she wrote under my supervision. Again, it is this kind of personal and high quality attention that makes us competitive with any university in the country.”
Correction: I misspelled Dr. Struppa’s first name in the first version of this story. The error has been corrected. Apologies to Dr. Struppa.
Follow Sciencedude on Twitter @grobbins, become a fan on Facebook, and watch his videos on the ocsciencedude channel of YouTube.
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101 Comments
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Yikes!
USC ego on a JC budget.
I think these chappies paid too much for their education and are trying to impress themselves.
USC is mostly known for its football program and fraternities and kids with good networking connections (i.e. daddy’s rich) getting their MBAs. I doubt that Chapman is trying to be like USC. Having a “USC ego” is not something to strive for.
When students are paying over $40,000 (including living expenses) and an administration is charging $40,000 at a school that admits half of its applicants, they will come up any excuse to make one think Chapman is in the same league as Notre Dame, MIT, et al. Chapman has done a good job of promoting itself - with a president (James Doti) whose ego is as big as a student’s tuiton bill, some smoke and mirrors and a few scholars long past their prime Chapman has created an illusion that has even fooled the editors at U.S. News and World Report that it’s in the same league as the nations truly elite institutions.
Chapman is fooling parents, students and themselves!
Why are they trying to make it seem like you could get the same quality education at MIT as you could at Chapman? Being an MIT grad, and having recently visited Chapman, i have to disagree. What will studying with an oscar winner get you? A nobel prize winner? Do you know how many of those Harvard, Caltech or MIT have? Chapman can only claim one? Chapman is definitely not worth the money. At most they should charge like UCI. Chapman university will only get name recognition here in Orange County, and that name recognition is not worth anything other than someone knowing the school is here. Not that it is a great school. Seriously, not for everyone? That only refers to those who dont want to have their education admired.
I attened Chapman for my Masters degree and can tell you straight up that it is definately NOT worth the money. The faculty were combative and sometimes hostile toward the students, they teetered on the verge of incompetence, leaving the students to mostly teach themselves. We were constantly made promises that were never delivered by those in charge. Their financial aid and billing departments were a testament to massive inefficiency. I actually laughed out loud when I read that Chapman assumes it belongs in the same breath as institutions such as Harvard and Yale. Maybe they should ask the law students from about six years ago about how they were told that the law school would be “fully accredited” by the time they graduated but that never came to fruition. And what about the film school students from four or five years ago who were promised that the campus was “conveniently located near major Hollywood studios”, yeah if by close you mean over 50 miles. And those same film students were promised that by the time they arrived they would have “state of the art equipment and facilities at their disposal” but instead were given ancient equipment to work with in a building that resembled a broom closet. Chapman has a lot of gall to suggest that they deserve to charge exorbitant amounts of money for the substandard education that they provide.
SClown — All of Chapman’s law students have graduated from an ABA-approved school.
Mary Platt, Director, Communications and Media Relations, Chapman University
A Chapman degree isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on. I should know, I have one hanging on my wall.
The whole experience was kind of like buying a $200,000 Rolls Royce and having to push it home.
Chapman, a great University - if I was smart enough and had the funds, I would rather have a different university name on my resume. It is all about image (besides the educational impact). Example. CSUF an excellent outstanding University with great professors, then would Chapman vs CSUF compare on a resume?
I agree with the comments so far. Regardless of how good the education at Chapman is, it is not generally recognized as a top school. Ultimately, the most important thing you get from a college education is the name on the diploma - that’s why the Harvard, Yale, Stanford and other top schools are worth so much. The name opens doors. Chapman does not have that kind of prestige, so you may as well go to a state school and save yourself $100K over the course of four years.
My thoughts exactly. Academia may recognize a degree from a less well known school, which may help getting into a Masters of PhD program, but when time comes to get employment the better known schools have the advantage.
Because they can!
As anyone living in Old Towne Orange — among the spoiled and unruly children attending Chapman — can attest: Money doesn’t buy brains, manners, or class!! But, it will buy you a degree from Chapman!
And, kids pick Chapman because it’s a total party school.
Chapman is a good academic school with average SATs of 1840 for freshman and a 3.7 GPA…..It is tougher to get into than any ‘party school.’ Are you jealous because you got turned down?
I most definitely did not choose to go to Chapman for partying. I am not a spoiled child either. I chose Chapman for reasons I won’t go into here but it had nothing to do with my status, socializing nor beause I was unruly.
You sound as immature as those you claim go to Chapman.
So you didn’t go there to party?
But you’re a OCSingleMom??? too much partying if you ask me.
lol if you think chapman is a party school you need to go visit some big universities…
Chapman is a JC level school.
This is not true. I have attended both junior colleges as well as universities and Chapman is a small, intimate campus with a good majority of decent professors.
No school is perfect, but Chapman was worth my time.
If I had five resumes on my desk for one job, I would call the Harvard, MIT, Yale graduates BEFORE ever calling Chapman. Sorry, but that is reality.
That said, many kids could not get into the more elite-level private schools or the UCs because of their GPA in High School. Chapman is a “good enough” school for those who have the money, want to stay in Orange County and not go to the JCs.
But let’s not fool ourselves….
**And they have the added advantage of giving you “scholars” like John Yoo to beef up your Orange County Republican bonafides.
Are you getting those graduates on your desk? Have you ever hired someone from one of the schools you would ‘hire from’ and pit them against a Chapman grad? If not, then your opinion is rather haphazard. Not that I approve of pitting anyone against anyone, however your statement is moot if you haven’t given a Chapman grad the chance to prove themselves.
You also have no idea why one would choose to go to Chapman over Harvard, Yale or MIT so to give this opinion is rather pompous and ignorant.
singlemom,
Thank you for speaking some logic. I’m sure he’s hired about 12 HBS grads already……
For those who are too young to remember, Chapman was a no-name religious liberal arts college waaay back in the 70″s and even 80’s. The accomplishment of this little college that could has been astounding if you compare it with many colleges that have been around for hundreds of years and still sit waaay back in the college ratings. OC should be proud of little Chapman moving forward challenging the “big boys” with fatter wallets. I think the tuition is too high, but this college is going places and in a hundred years, may be a collegiate power house in academics.
I think all the haters here are way off-base (and, from the sound of it, pretty old — you remember the “old days” at Chapman, that’s for sure!). The Chapman story is new - it’s about the incredible growth and improvement of this little university over the past 15 or so years. It actually IS a national powerhouse in several important areas, including its science school and the economic sciences.
The university seems to be approaching all this from a very smart angle — there is no way that it (or any small university) can EVER compete with the Harvards and Yales and CalTechs of the world across the board. It would never happen. So the smart thing to do — and what Chapman IS doing — is to establish unique niche areas where it CAN be the best in the country, if not the world.
Chapman arguably has the world’s finest economic sciences department. Its science school was just founded last year, but it includes niche areas like earth environmental observing and hazards studies (earthquakes, wildfires) and mine-wastes hazards on a scale that no one else is undertaking. It offers unique film studies (production classes in Asia, documentary classes that span the globe, interdisciplinary film/law classes) that no one else is doing. It offers a prosecutorial science program in the law school that’s offered nowhere else. Its Holocaust studies program is world-class.
You don’t fight the big boys by trying to be another big boy — you compete by becoming your own unique (boutique?) institution and draw students to areas few others offer or have even thought of. I agree with X-DEM, OC should be proud of what Chapman has accomplished in little more than 15 years (where will it be in 30??). And if you want personalized study with and alongside a Nobelist or Oscar winner, you’re more likely to do so at Chapman than at Harvard, where you might see the star faculty only once in a while. In that. it’s worth the tuition.
“Chapman arguably has the world’s finest economic sciences department.” If that was the case, it WOULD compete with the other major private universities mentioned. Finest, according to who or what college comparison effort? Its an economic sciences department is intended to support the conservative philosophical principles that match the many conservative donors. Example, did Art Laffer wrote about his “Laffer Curve” (or laughter curve) while a professor there, or did he arrive after propounding that particular joke in the 80’s. Regardless, its speaks volumes of the world’s finest economic sciences department. Seriously, this place suffers, in addition to many other things, “endowment envy”.
Since Chapman’s economic science department was only founded two years ago, I think you are mistaken - it wasn’t around in the ’80s,
And Art Laffer has never been on the faculty at Chapman, so not sure what you’re talking about there.
But - don’t let your misunderstanding of the facts get in the way of your opinions.
I think I’d Argue They Don’t is confusing “economic science” with “economics.” Two different things. But he sounds pretty confused to begin with…
O.K. I’m checking your original post, looking for facts. Hmmm see a lot of opinion not a lot of facts. I’ll move on. I had made a mistake. Art Laffer taught at that other small bastion of over-inflated education, Pepperdine. He merely guest lectured at Chapman a few times. Will stand by the rest. Come on, aren’t you really Gary?
I graduated from USC in 1978 and it took about 12 months of working to earn back my tuition. Now it would take about 4 years.
The higher education inflation has been a crime. One raises and they all match. They need to be slapped down.
I graduated from one of the prestigious schools listed above. I didn’t learn much in my four years; was taught frequently by teaching assistants and professors just off the boat whose command of English was limited…but I have a degree from a prestigious university and that’s what matters as unfortunate as it is. Chapman’s ego driven administrators can say what they want about this department or that professor - the bottom line is the name on the degree and Chapman is no MIT, USC, Harvard, UCLA, Cal, Yale, etc.
As a recent Chapman graduate, I can say the tuition is ridiculous. But would I do it again? In a heart beat for the mere fact that I went to small private school and was able to develop relationships with my professors which have carried on past graduation. If I were to email a professor today and ask for a letter of recommendation, not only would he write it for me - he would actually write me a well-versed convincing letter because he’ll be able to recall who I am. Compare that to the larger schools where classes have upwards of 300 students in a large lecture hall. How on earth can a student learn or retain any kind of information when he or she is just another face in the crowd? My largest class at Chapman held MAYBE 40 students. My smallest classroom had 6. My teachers knew when I wasn’t in class and would personally email me to find out why because they CARED. That’s the difference in going to a smaller school struggling for recognition and the larger schools who don’t give a damn.
They were not comparing Chapman to USC or UCLA, they were comparing it to small universities like Harvard and Yale which also have very, small classrooms.
Harvard isn’t small. It’s large. Some lecture classes have about 200 students.
Large lecture classes are extremely typical of any university…and usually happens at the 100 and 200 level classes before people start working more towards their major as opposed to the required core classes. So any large or small university is going to have this issue.
Hey chappygrad - do you honestly feel paying $150,000 for a degree so you can get a recommendation letter immediately is worth it? You obviously weren’t an economics major. And the fact that your professors sent you e-mail when you weren’t in class…give me a break. Can you tell me that your caring professors, small classes and the ability to immediately obtain a recommendation letter is worth the nearly $100,000 difference from a degree from UCLA or a similar prestigious state school?
Chuck: “Can you tell me that your caring professors, small classes and the ability to immediately obtain a recommendation letter is worth the nearly $100,000 difference from a degree from UCLA or a similar prestigious state school?”
This is the 3rd or 4th time in this thread that I’ve seen UCLA mentioned as some sort of “prestigious” school. Except when checking who’s rooting for who when UCLA plays USC, I’ve never seen anyone very impressed by a UCLA degree. It’s just another degree.
OK, it’s better than CSUN, but to put UCLA in the same breath as Harvard, Yale, or even Stanford or CalTech is laughable. To mention it as being anything more than just another state university is laughable. As to your question about whether Chapman’s tuition is worth it, if the difference is a mere $10,000/yr in take-home salary (barely worth switching companies in most professional jobs these days), then the extra $100K in tuition would be recovered in 10 years (not counting interest). And then you keep earning that higher salary after it’s paid off. So, yes, <> it gets a better job, then it’s worth it. Whether it does get that better job is a highly subjective and easily debatable question. If the tuition is paid by OC parents that can comfortably pay it, then I’d say the student definitely finds it worthwhile.
-Darth
P.S. Full disclosure: I didn’t attend university on the West Coast, and I didn’t attend an Ivy League school. My first “jobs” out of school were in (near) Enterprise, Alabama, then Augusta, Georgia, and then Darmstadt, Germany. Those should be sufficient clues as to where I went to school.
Darth, you’re in the dark, dude. UCLA is one of the most prestigious universities in the country. It is nationally ranked in medicine, law, business, film and engineering. The UCLA Medical Center is known internationally. UCLA played a key role in the invention of what became the Internet. Six faculty or alumni have won a Nobel Prize, 10 have won the National Medal of Science, 3 have won a Pulitzer, one was awarded the Pritzker, one won the Fields Medal in mathematics, and 15 have won an Academy Award. Nine have been MacArthur “Genius” Fellows. UCLA alumni include Francis Ford Coppola, Rob Reiner, Carol Burnett, Arthur Ashe and Troy Aikman.
All of these people have too much time on their hands….
The premise of this post is a bit misleading. Look up the tuition at almost any decent private university and the range is 35-40K. Loyola Marymount and USD are the same price as Chapman and no one thinks they’re comparable to Ivy League either. Tuition costs for sure have gotten out of control, but 80-85% of Chapman students don’t pay full price.
I’m pretty sure USD is a better school than Chapman.
That is true — you don’t compare Chapman to comparable schools that cost the same. Almost every private university of comparable size costs right around the same. People flip out because they compare this to what state schools charge (hello, person who said Chapman should charge the same as UCI — YOU are subsidizing the tuition costs of every student who goes to UCI. All us taxpayers are paying for MOST of the tuition of students who attend state schools. All private schools are doing is charging what the education experience actually costs - without gouging taxpayers (you and me) for it. OC taxpayers should be proud of Chapman for making its own way in the world and being successful, and not taking money out of your pocket unless you happen to have a kid to send there. But whether you have kids or not, you ARE paying tuition for every kid who attends a state university.
I am a Chapman parent — twice — and would send them there again in a heartbeat. They both received individualized educations, not a “rubber stamp” course of studies. The personal nuturing and guidance from outstanding faculty made a tremendous difference. Chapman is building their endowment - it’s a long struggle, but also provides scholarship assistance for the majority of students so the tuition IS available to those who need assistance. Chapman has been a blessing to us!
Translation: They catered to my spoiled brats.
Meh. California has the best public university system in the nation and people are rushing off to pay many times a UC tuition for a private university. I really can’t imagine why - is it the prestige?
I go to Chapman, my boyfriend goes to Cal State University Northridge (CSUN)
The largest class I’ve ever had was 40 students
His largest class had 200 students
All of my professors know me by name and most of my past professors still remember me.
He needs to remind professors he’s had multiple times who he is.
If I have a problem with anything I can find someone to help me quickly.
He was told to wait until November to email his adviser because she is too busy to help.
All of the courses I needed this semester were available and I was able to get into them.
CSUN dropped many classes to help with the budget deficit in the Cal State system and of the classes still available most of them had over a dozen people trying to petition to get in.
Its not prestige, it is quality. I don’t think it is 36K a year quality, especially when Chapman doesn’t increase scholarship and aid amounts to offset tuition increases, but after seeing what my boyfriend has gone through with the Cal State system I’d gladly give Chapman that extra money.
I was referring to the UC system, where 5 of the UC campuses were included in the top 20 listing of the latest Washington Monthly college ranking based on the university’s contribution to the public good in three broad categories: Social Mobility (recruiting and graduating low-income students), Research (producing cutting-edge scholarship and PhDs), and Service (encouraging students to give something back to their country). The top 3 are UCs (Berkeley, San Diego, Los Angeles), each costing a mere fraction of any of the other prestigious private universities on the same list.
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/college_guide/rankings/national_university_rank.php
I am a senior at chapman, and although I’ve enjoyed my stay (here for film), I couldn’t imagine dropping coin for any other major here really…. also helps that I, thanks to scholarships / grants, pay less than a UC school here…
80 percent of Chapman students get scholarships? Why wasn’t that fact made clear in the article?
Chapman needs infalted tutions in order to continue to gobble up the surronding nieghborhoods. Soon the Chapman flag will fly over the Orange Circle while the Panther mascot paces anxiously for fresh meat. (freshmen).
Attention Spelling Police. Clean up in aisle 2.
Yeah, yeah, I know. Like I haven’t made a million spelling errors, including getting Chancellor Struppa’s first name wrong in this item. Still, I couldn’t resist ….
I never heard of Chapman before I moved to SoCal, and even then, never heard of Chapman until I moved to OC, and I couldn’t tell you a single thing about it since I do not know a single Chapman grad despite having lived here for many years. Maybe it is my profession since we only hire grads from top schools. To compare Chapman to schools like Caltech and MIT is a joke.
Let’s set aside Chapman for a minute .. You only “hire grads from top schools”?I suspect that means you miss some good people. Good people are where you find them, whether they’re walking the Infinite Corridor at MIT, praying in Packer Chapel at Lehigh or peering at the cosmos at Holcolmb Observatory at Butler.
Harvard, Yale and most the Ivy League schools have alumni that have donated Billions to those schools and their fee’s are subsidized by these large funds. Chapman has large donors, but we are talking Millions rather than the Billions that those Ivy League schools use to keep fees low. Same principle as how the Airbus beats out Boeing.
Ahem … Over the past 10 years, Boeing delivered about 500 more planes than Airbus.
Stan: “Harvard, Yale and most the Ivy League schools have alumni that have donated Billions to those schools and their fee’s are subsidized by these large funds. Chapman has large donors, but we are talking Millions rather than the Billions that those Ivy League schools use to keep fees low. Same principle as how the Airbus beats out Boeing.”
The plethora of factual errors in this post is astounding. Gary nailed one of them. In addition to the fact that he was flat wrong about Airbus v. Boeing, I still have no idea what Stan was suggesting. That Airbus has a large endowment? That former Airbus employees subsidize the cost of their planes? No idea what he’s talking about.
Also, Ivy League schools do NOT use their endowments to “keep fees low”. Their tuition is very high. They use their endowments to upgrade and expand their facilities, buy new technology, hire the best professors, fund cutting edge research, and a host of other activities, but they definitely do NOT use it to keep tuition low.
-Darth
As far as growth is concerned an equivalent school in age as a U is USD. About the same cost, but I think USD has a much higher reputation
Choosing a college is an extremely personal choice. While many comparisons can be made both mathmatically and emotionally…ultimately the only thing that matters is what you, the student feels about your education. I went to a university in Ohio and I loved the experience…wouldn’t trade it for the world. Now, does my resume with my university get a better priority over someone with a USC graduated stampped on it…probably not. But for me, the negatives are so small in comparison to the positives I feel about my university experience.
The most thoughtful post of the day. Thanks, Chefgal.
I love the “Alumni” license plates referenced above and on every car, bus, train and plane on the planet… Unless one is siamese twin (and both heads graduated), the correct singular form for a graduate is “Alumnus”; “Alumni” is plural. Alternatively, “Alumna” and “Alumnae” are singular and plural forms of the feminine: that’s right, it’s different for women! Remember the rhyme: Octopus/Octopi;
Alumnus/Alumni!
Growing up in Tustin in the last 70’s, no one ever thought about Chapman College. The only school we knew about was Orange High and I think their football team was better than Chapman’s. UC education vs. Chapman?, no contest, UC hands down.
Same here, Tim. Grew up in OC and Chapman was widely considered a junior college for rich people when I went to CSUF in the 80s. BUT — go visit it now if you’re ever near downtown Orange. The place has completely transformed in the last 10 years both in its facilities and educational programs, especially the film school but certainly other depts as well. I know an administrator at NYU who says Dodge College (film) has really risen on the national radar among other educational institutions and is luring away students, faculty and donations from other established programs such as NYU. Again, I can’t defend the high sticker price (really, does the upper-class dorm NEED a rock-climbing wall?) but unlike some other private universities, it offers merit-based scholarships and most kids don’t pay sticker price.
I’m still trying to figure out how they managed to double the cost of the tuition from when I attended only 5 years ago. Then again, I don’t really wonder, because they just mange to do so.
And considering what I paid, I should have at least gotten a diploma with my name embossed on it. Instead, they just ran it through a printer. Pretty tacky.
Anyone else find it ironic that they want you to purchase a “Chapman Grad” license plate frame? Shouldn’t one be handed out at graduation? I’ve paid for one time and time again (in my tuition). Not like I’d put it on my car anyway.
I don’t know what you are talking about, but I received a free “Chapman Alumni” license plate frame at graduation.
By the way, I was offered a job in television, even before graduation. My friends who graduated from USC and UCLA can’t even find jobs in the same field. So what does that tell you?
Come on guys, stop looking to institutions to open doors for you. Ditch the pre-industrial revolutionary zombie mindset, and start your own business, even if you have to borrow from friends or relatives to get it off of the ground. Stop trying to live up to what some corporate monkey in a suit thinks you should be, create your own destiny. These schools are laughing all the way to the bank, and leaving you in debt to lenders, and then to HR reps who want to mold you like clay. Bill Gates dropped out of college, albeit Harvard, but he still dropped out and worked his tail off.
I am always amused when people throw USC into the mix. USC isn’t even an elite school in Southern California (unless you are talking football) let alone the USA. That honor goes to CalTech, Harvey Mudd, and UCLA.
Chapman is a regional school with a decent regional reputation. Some of its graduates matriculate to prestiguous schools. But, it’s more akin to Biola, St. Mary’s and Pepperdine than it is to a top tier school. Even the U.S. News and World Report had to qualify its number 9 spot by stating Chapman did well among Western State Schools known as Masters Universities!
And with all the hoopla about its law school, UCI’s two week old law school already has a far superior reputation. Ouch!
Ronald: I’m not sure what would lead you to say that USC isn’t an “elite school” even in Southern California. USC has many nationally-ranked programs, notably in law, business, film, business, and gerontology.
The old saying “University of Spoiled Children” is slowly changing. USC is climbing the US News and World Ranking every year. Check out charts dating back to the 80s and you’ll see a slow climb up for USC where they are now comparable to UCLA for national universities! After reading about all of the cutbacks the UCs have to endure this year and next, I wonder if USC will actually rank higher than UCLA and Berkeley next year. That’s gotta hurt!
USC ranked higher than Cal–I wouldn’t count on it.
USC = 13 National Academy of Science Members
Cal = 136 National Academy of Science Members
USC = 1 Nobel Prize winner
Cal = 20 Faculty and 24 Alumni
Sorry–USC may beat Cal in football, but academically it is not even close
Whether your degree is from a better or lesser known college, after you have been working a few years what really matters is what you have done and what you can do on the job, not what you did back at whatever college. Families would be better served deciding where their student will get the best education, rather than focus too much on the name.
College rankings are of little use, because they only tell you which college has the most valuable inputs (highest SAT students, etc), rather than which one adds the most value. Kind of like saying that the company with the highest costs must be the best company - doesn’t really make much sense.
Unfortunately, some of the top Law, Business and Medical Schools still look at where you received your undergraduate degree… with all things (test scores, GPA, etc) being equal.
I remember back in 1991 no one heard of Chapman. Now I come across a lot of articles talking about the economics research from Chapman. This must be one of the “most improved” universities in its rise in prestige over the past 10 or 15 years.
Chapman is essentially a baby-sitting service for the children of the wealthy and the wannabe-wealthy whose SATs and GPAs were not high enough to get into Harvard or Yale. Ironically, the only people who aren’t familiar with this reputation are usually the poor Chapman students themselves.
Unlike a degree from Harvard, Yale or MIT, a Chapman degree will impress very few human resource departments (outside of the field of elementary school education.) Don’t believe it? Try mentioning your Chapman degree the next time you’re rubbing elbows with the ivy league crowd, and watch the sneers, snide laughs and condescention begin!
Mister: You don’t have to go to a famous school to get a great education and impress potential employers.Employers are impressed by a person’s achievement in school, and the potential they possess.
Gary: I agree with your statement to some extent, but there are also industry sectors where your educational pedigree is much more important than others. I’ve worked for a couple of different Fortune 500 companies where there was absolutely no chance of advancing in rank unless you were an ivy league grad … and it also helped if you were white, male, and protestant and drank the right brand of Scotch and played a good game of golf.
I’m not saying that’s right or fair, but it’s definitely the way it works at a lot of large corporations. People in power have a tendancy to place greater trust in others who are exactly like them.
I like the Orange County Register. I visit it online for a few minutes many mornings. Still, I wonder while we’re evaluating relative costs of products and services in Orange County, perhaps we can also explore why a 52-week, 7-day subscription to the Orange County Register costs $155.51 and a 52-week, 6-day subscription to The Wall Street Journal costs $119. Admittedly there are numerous subscription rates for both publications, but in every case, I think Chapman, with its indisputable skyward trajectory, clearly stands up under such scrutiny far better than the Register does.
Certainly more to the point, I employ a Chapman graduate and have worked with a number of others in various community settings through the years. They are amongst the best young writers with whom I’ve worked. I won’t attempt to speak to their knowledge of the subject in which they earned a degree, but if there is one skill I value above all others - for people of any age - it is the ability to communicate effectively. As an employer I know I’m not alone in this belief.
My experience with Chapman students is obviously anecdotal, and hardly as scientific as the vaunted US News rankings. But then, few, if any, have really argued that the US News evaluation, with its heavily weighted and nearly indefensible Peer Assessment, was scientific.
I serve as Director of Graduate Studies for a relatively new top-notch interdisciplinary evidence-based Master of Science program in Health Risk Communication at Chapman University in the new Schmid College of Science that is staffed with top scholar-teachers from a variety of disciplines (e.g. math/biosciences; communication; business; psychology; political science) see http://www.chapman.edu/cs/HealthComm
It is extremely affordable (approximately 16k for 30 credit MS degree) and sets up students for exciting paid internships and jobs as strategic health experts in the health industry (e.g. NIH, CDC, USDA, FDA, National Historic Trust Preservation, PR/Strategic Health organizations, associations, foundations, academic appointments, etc.).
Chapman U. is not for everyone of course, but for targeted niche programs it certainly rivals the best programs out there—nationally and internationally. As we continue to build high quality programs of excellence, the reputation and value of the degrees offered will continue to draw more national attention, but it does take time, hard work, and commitment from the faculty/admin, students, and community.
This is what universities that are growing and building do…..build niche programs of excellence in strategic areas that are strong; build and grow programs across the board by hiring the best faculty possible and supporting them with a positive work environment that rewards hard work, dedication, and commitment to excellence in research and teaching to provide the best possible learning environment for students who are paying top dollar for high quality education! High quality education means infusing current research knowledge into each and every course offered whether it is here in OC, the midwest or on the east coast. Chapman is not Harvard or Yale or Caltech, but is certainly movin on up—so stay tuned!
Wow — a lot of vitriol here, most of it uninformed and misdirected. There has always been a simmering resentment in a certain segment of the population against “the rich” or those who they perceive to be “rich.” The comments about Chapman being a “rich” institution or a “babysitter for rich kids” — not true at all. Sure, as with any university, there are some “rich” families who send their kids here — but the vast majority of Chapman students do NOT come from families that anyone would consider “wealthy.” Eighty percent of Chapman students receive financial aid or scholarships. Students who qualify to attend Chapman are not turned away because they can’t pay — we find a way to help them. Chapman itself raises funds from our wonderful private donors, and we hand out more than $55 million in scholarships to our students EVERY YEAR.
None of this is done at your (taxpayer) expense — it is carried out through private fund-raising. None of our new buildings are built at taxpayer expense — they are paid for completely through private fund-raising.
Chapman’s tuition prices, by the way, are right in line with any number of other universities (just in California: Claremont McKenna, Pomona, LMU, Univ of San Diego, Santa Clara, Scripps, Pitzer, Redlands, Pepperdine — some slightly higher, some slightly lower), so the whole argument comparing our tuition to Harvard’s prices is not exactly fair.
The remarkable rise of Chapman in the academic rankings has come about fairly recently in the school’s history, with leadership from President Doti and our extraordinary group of advisors, board members and upper administrators. The folks here who are taking potshots at our rise in rankings and national recognition — water off a duck’s back, guys. Why should Chapman not seek and find excellence?
Actually, it never ceases to amaze me that people (so bitterly!) want to put down anyone or any institution that strives to better itself and reach for excellence. There is a strong and rather ugly tendency in our society as a whole to do that, and it is troubling. Universities and every student and faculty member within them should be about the quest for knowledge AND excellence, constantly bettering themselves. We should all celebrate that quest, not attack it.
Mary Platt
Director, Communications and Media Relations, Chapman University
Only: USC actually has about 50 members who are members of the National Academy of Sciences. http://www.usc.edu/about/factbook/faculty/national_academy.html
The Academy is composed of the National Academy of Sciences, the National Academy of Engineering and the Institute of Medicine. Cal still has a larger number of members. But what you’re trying to do is make it look like USC isn’t strong, academically. It is.
But that’s beside the point. The original post asked a simple question: Why does Chapman cost as much as Yale and Caltech.
Thank you Gary for bringing us back to the original question. My opinion is that your interesting and provocative article actually asks the wrong question. Specifically, Chapman’s tuition is fully in line with what other similar institutions such as Loyola Marymount, Redlands, USD, Santa Clara, Occidental, etc.
We charge a bit more than some of these institutions, and a bit less than others (and maybe it would be instructive to publish those data, which I think you have). The question then becomes “Why do small private institutions charge as much as Yale and Caltech?”
This, it seems to me, is a better question because it does not single out an institution as if there were something specially wrong about it, and brings to the forefront what the real issue is: the size of the endowment.
Institutions such as Yale and Caltech are able to draw from huge endowments, that places such as Chapman (and other universities in the list) do not. In fact, now that we have rephrased the question, and that we have a new perspective, we could even ask a new question: “Why do institutions such as Yale and Caltech charge so much, given that their endowments would allow them to make education more affordable?” As I am sure you and your readers may remember, before the collapse of the financial markets, this question was actually been asked in congress (with little success). As I told you in my earlier email, however, despite my disagreement with your premise, I am always happy when Chapman and Caltech appear in the same sentence!
Gary-you are right, I did not count the membership of the National Academies, just the National Academy of Sciences. So to set the record straight, USC has 50 total members of the National Academies and Cal has 221 total members (Science and Engineering). I did not say that USC was academically weak, but I was responding to a post that suggested USC could be ranked higher than Cal–that just will not happen.
But overall this entire thread is silly and your question and analysis is simplistic at best. Who cares what Chapman charges? If people want to go there, and they like the school–so what. The real point of this article and actually many “blog” articles in the Register these days is to pose “loaded” questions so as to drive up “hits” on the Register website.
Onlythefacts: I don’t load up questions. It was a fair question to ask, simply, when does Chapman cost as much as famous schools. When in a recession; money is tight. Parents and students are reading US News carefully. They’re doing price comparisons. Some students who apply to Chapman also have the option to go to a famous like. But money is often a factor in their decision.
Assembly-member Duvall (see current report of his liasons with registered lobbyists) was honored and praised for his “fight” to protect and preserve family values for us. Chapman University gave him their “Ethics in America Award” a few years ago. No, you can’t leave politics out of the equation when you are discussing what it costs to go to a school because what the school stands for is part of what your diploma stands for. Chapman degree? Will probably get you a good job in a conservative business like banking or real estate. Respect from the rest of us for your institution? Pick one or the other.
Politics: No campus is responsible for what an award recipient does (or doesn’t) do long after the recipient receives the award.
No, they simply gave an award to someone at face value, as they did here. You give an award, you are linking yourself to that person. You take the good, you take the bad (the facts of life!). They liked his extreme views and his 100% conservative voting record and no doubt raised some donations at the awards dinner. Actually I think they should do some more vetting. Seriously, I respectfully disagree with you on this one.
Politics: Thanks for being civil in your disagreement. I saw the video about the lawmaker on Channel 2 last night. First I’d heard of it.
Chapman did not present this award. The award was presented by the Passkeys Foundation. The ceremony happened to occur at Chapman. Many outside organizations rent and use space at the university.
Mary Platt
Director, Communications and Media Relations, Chapman University
O.K. if we are limited to only the question. It costs a lot of money to run a a campus. An air conditioner costs the same just about anywhere. Teachers cost a lot too. Now ask a question about value.
They are all too expensive.
No one has mentioned how much graduates earn from different schools the year they graduate and say 10 years after they graduate. The only way to evaluate an investment is to assess the earnings stream. I bet a lot of money that only the top tier schools like Havard, Yale, and Standford can justify what they cost. Graduates from Chapman are not likely to earn more especially in teaching where salaries are fixed for new teachers.
Here are some tuition facts (full-time undergraduate tuition, excluding fees, ranking Chapman and other leading independent schools. Figures are for last year, the ‘08-’09 academic year, the most recent stats I had available for all these schools.)
USC $37,692
Claremont/McKenna 36,825
Pepperdine 36,650
Occidental 36,160
Pomona 35,318
Santa Clara 34,950
USD 34,000
Chapman 33,760
Loyola Marymount 33,266
Redlands 31,994
Whittier 31,950
Univ of the Pacific 30,230
Cal Lutheran 27,600
La Verne 26,910
Chapman’s ’09-10 tuition is $35,790. Since that increase was 6 percent, we guess that our relative position with the above schools stayed about the same. We say that because most schools raised their tuition more than 6 percent. (Remember, this is tuition only, not fees — the number Gary cites in the main post is tuition plus fees. I don’t have fee info for all these schools. “Fees” can vary widely, but mostly encompass things like student government fees, parking fees, health center fees, etc.)
Mary Platt
Director, Communications and Media Relations, Chapman University
So now Chapman is changing their name too? http://brandman.edu/theStory/
Chapman University is not changing its name.
Our system of campuses for adult learners, formerly known as Chapman University College, is changing its name to Brandman University, due to a generous $10 million grant from the Brandman Foundation.
We started this system of campuses shortly after World War II, when returning GI’s flooded back into California and went back to school on the GI Bill, and college campuses (including Chapman, which was then located on a small property in L.A.) started bursting at the seams. With no room on the L.A. campus for them all, Chapman started offering classes on Army, Navy, Marine and Air Force bases. That soon expanded into Chapman University College, now Brandman University, which still has campuses located in many military towns.
But the main campus, Chapman University in Orange, is NOT changing its name.
Mary Platt, Director of Communications and Media Relations, Chapman University
I went to undergrad at UCSD, ranked top 5 in my major (math, econometrics). Finishing my MBA at Chapman now. If and when I should ever have any amount of money, its going to Chapman, not UCSD. It’s my sincerest hope that one day Chapman will be regarded as the Babson of the west coast. If anyone thinks that is out of reach they havent seen the program recently. And if anyone doesn’t know what Babson is….well then you’ve kind of shown how much you know about the subject.
Wow, a Babson reference ….Observer felt the need to insult people not familiar with Babson. You needn’t feel ashamed. Babson is a small school located in Wellesley, Mass. and it is highly respected in business education, especially entrepreneurship. It has about 3,500 students. (Chapman has about 6,100.) Babson’s alumni include Edsel Ford II, a member of Ford Motors’ board of directors, and Akio Toyoda, who runs Toyota. Oh, and Daniel Gerber, who gave the world Gerber baby food. Said another way, Babson is a very good school.
Haha, not dissing people, it just seems people on here are more concerned with the name on your diploma than the education you get from the program you choose. My attempt at being witty came across a little more mean than I intended I suppose. Babson is a great school, consistently ranked (16 years in a row) as #1 in entrepreneurship.
Everyone needs to lighten up a bit and stop being so negative. There are plenty of great schools out there, but more importantly, bright, creative people that are doing really interesting work in new and exciting fields. Who has time to hate on schools?
Wow, a Babson reference … Observer felt an unexplained need to diss people who aren’t familiar with the school. Don’t feel bad. Babson doesn’t enjoy the sort of national profile of some top small schools. But it’s an excellent college, especially in the area of business (entrepreneurship.). Babson alumni include Edsel Ford II, a director of Ford Motors, and Akio Toyoda, who runs Toyota Motors. Oh, and Daniel Gerber, who created Gerber baby foods. Babson is in Wellesley, Massachusetts and has about 3,500 students. (Chapman has about 6,100.)
Sticking: I’m not sure what point you’re making. I didn’t raise Art Laffer’s name. And your remark about Pepperdine is political in nature and has nothing to do with the original post.
Onlythefacts: USC is one university. The University of California is a system of 10 campuses. Your comparison isn’t fair. And Cal beat USC in football in October 1999. I’m just sayin’ …
Gary–stop already the comparison is completely fair, the fact that the UC is a system means nothing in this comparison, the numbers I provided are for Berkeley only–NOT THE SYSTEM. I am comparing one campus, UC Berkeley to another, USC.